An industry figure has hit out at what he calls the budget, private and no-cost property adverts appearing on Rightmove and Zoopla.
Trevor Mealham, who runs INEA (the Independent Network of Estate Agents), said that in one case, he found landlords who wish to advertise rental properties need pay nothing to go on the portals: instead, the prospective tenant pays referencing fees to the agent that arranges the listings.
Mealham said he has discovered 1,500 budget agents’ adverts on Zoopla and Rightmove.
He said: “These are budget agents offering main portal exposure starting at no cost. They are essentially offering a way for private sellers and landlords to access Rightmove and Zoopla.”
Examples he has turned up do, however, stress that they are online agents. They include Turtle Homes, listing 92 properties for sale on Rightmove and 86 for sale on Zoopla, plus 13 rental properties each on both sites; and Myhouseadvert, which has 109 properties for sale on Rightmove.
Turtle Homes is an online estate agent that offers a full selling service that includes listings on Rightmove and Zoopla from £249. It claims to offer landlords a free rental service, including Rightmove and Zoopla listings.
Myhouseadvert is also an online agent, which charges £69 a month, also including Rightmove and Zoopla listings.
Mealham’s research underlines the clearly distinct property agency models that have emerged.
He said: “I looked at just six budget sites which advertise on Rightmove and Zoopla, and found 1,500 properties between them.
“I think it is simply wrong that these adverts are accepted, because these are 1,500 instructions that Rightmove’s and Zoopla’s traditional subscribers will not get.
“Yet it is these agents who year after year face subscription hikes and who have built these portals up to what they are today.”
A spokesman for Zoopla said: “We do not accept property listings directly from either private sellers or private landlords on our websites. Our policy is to only allow listings provided by agent and/or developer members to advertise with us.
“There are a variety of different agent models operating in the marketplace but we do vet all members to ensure that they are acting as an agent before accepting their advertising.
“Should we discover any advertiser on our websites that does not comply with our policy, we will investigate and act accordingly.”
Writing earlier this week on EAT, agent Trevor Kent warned of the growing numbers of competitors offering a virtual DIY service, “wriggling their stock on to Rightmove by subterfuge, smoke and mirrors…”
Comments
I must admit that reading all of this is quite hilarious. I’m so pleased we (MyHouseAdvert.co.uk) got a mention in the article! Why are high street agents and associated bodies so scared of the online approach? Surely if OEA’s were so ridiculous, and our services were so poor, it wouldn’t be of any concern to the high street. The fact is that OEA’s keep getting ‘your’ instructions ;-). Good to see Trevor Mealham encouraging new business models in the sector?!
The facts are:
We are Estate Agents (although in training for NAEA the director has a degree in Property Finance).
We don’t assist with private listings – i.e. we arrange site visits for all properties.
We arrange viewings, handle feedback, negotiate offers, validate funding and offer sale progression.
Yes it is £69.95 a month!
We’ve sold 400 houses since launch 30 months ago, and what we have done is testament to what can be done with hard work. We’ve nearly 100 reviews on TrustPilot from happy customers and we evidence all sales on our site, with links to Zoopla, showing us as agent during the sale. Our viewings management systems are superior to the majority of the high street agents, for example, all our clients manage their own calendars online so we can book in viewings quickly and easily = less work = less costs. It’s not difficult to grasp is it?
Until the high street gets a grip on its commission fees we, and all established OEA’s, will continue to prosper. We’ve had 8 instructions so far this month, and it’s DECEMBER!!!
Rather than slagging off OEA’s I suggest the high street agents and the INEA focus on their pre-historic business models. Trevor Mealham – get a life, and get your facts right. The fact that you think Rightmove shouldn’t allow us to be a member is nothing short of comical. I look forward to your next comment, I am sure that will be equally as amusing.
I am a small time property developer, I have used the traditional methods of estate agents. My recent experience using 3 of the leading firms is not good. They lie on valuations or have no real appraisal of the market. They make wild boasts on what they can achieve. They over inflate viewing figures, simply by bringing clients who have no desire to live in that area. Fail to get decent offers..and worse have no respect for the property they are caring for..in one case an agent urinated on the toilet wall. They charge exhaubetant commission rates for basically doing SFA. When I have sold other properties, it is me that does the donkey work , making sure the sale goes smoothly. I put in a the graft to make the property presentable, and pleasing. So I resent them taking such a huge cut of the sale. It is the same when I look for somewhere to buy, I find an agent is incapable of telling the trurth, and misrepresents on decription. Heavily edited images that are misleading. So I prefer to advertise myself, I stay honest , maybe I won't generate the leads that an agent might. Another thing agents don't appreciate is the stress involved in buying , both for the vendor and the buyer, actually they do..often by bulling. I detest all estate agents and it is time their days were numbered, I hope people will stop using them. Rember if it is a private sale you are more likely to get a better deal.
As a non-agent I find many of the responses here quite entertaining.
The reason why these independant portals are becoming popular is many people look at what estate agents are doing in England and realising they could easily do it themselves, if they only had access to the big listing sites. Add to that the extraordinary fees being charged by many agents (my experience is in central London), and you have a perfect recipe for resentment.
If agents' fees were comemnsurate with the amount of work being done (and I do realise not all agents are Foxtons) you might face less of a risk from these services.
The best and fairest way to compete, is to compete, not to use your heft as an industry to protect the status quo. Estate agents have enjoyed years of limited regulation (compared to almost every other profession) which has allowed fees to be set at levels that your customers cannot understand. If you think the fees are justified, then justify them, but if you cannot perhaps it is time for a change, as many outside the industry suspect.
INEA is a great idea full credit to Trevor ................it is the future
As the head on the INEA I would say it is for you to challenge the RM fee model. Many of your memebers would greatly appreciate it.
Dont upset the status quo??? Surely its for your members to decide what business model to use in order to compete
Do you only advocate a no sale no fee model?
If so its probably due to your 27 succesful years in the industry...it worked for you so its the only way,
I get how the MLS works i just dont see enough agents working this way in the futrure i'm afraid and the corporates will never take part.
I appreciate the debate thank you
HAPPY CHAPPY - New traditional agents should follow inviting listings at sensible commissions as not to upset agents status quo.
HAPPY CHAPPY - It's not for me to challenge RM's fee model. Ive simply highlighted that private listings are finding a way in. It's for agents to accept or use as ammo, or opt out. Alternatives exist - MLS
LongThread - I really don't care. INEA is about being 90% a data exchange and 10% portal website. Our purpose is ttally different to RM or Zoopla. We link Agent A's data with Agent B-C-D's buyers or tenants. portals don't do this.
Jolly Old Soul - Fair play to you.
HAPPY CHAPPY - Not one property in INEA yet 500 in RM. INEA is a data exchange. What if a RM agent also has 0 properties in an area and another INEA agent has matching listings. The lead could be passed over and as we see daily Agent A and B do a deal where one has the listings and the other has the property. We cross send agents data from one software to the others sub agents. This is called MLS idx (multi-listing system/information data exchange). The RM feed doesnt allow this. THINK, the RM feed not allowing agents to work together creates a situation that you all have to have RM and Zoopla accounts. By altering the flow of data, agents can be linked. Me thinks that agents could save £millions each year?? and the OFT in their Sept 2013 regulation release quotes ''sub agency'' twice. As such portals can't say agents can't work together if in the interest of clients.
PAUL - Unfortunately property data is sent in xml coding. This is improving but different softwares have different xml schemas. Our main job is to get Agent A's listings to Agents B-C-D-E. By sharing data, images etc, etc, when agents are asked do you have, the worst answer is NO. As most agents use main portals, raw data is placed on details in a better state than roughly carried over.
For example what were about is: Today another London agent has joined with over 200 group available listings our other agents can access as subs to introduce buyers and tenants to. Sales intros that complete are worth in this instance 0.5% and lets 20% of the first months rent.
So an agent with 20 listings who is with INEA has 220 available plus other subs accepted come later this week.
Our job is taking non compatible property data and helping agents who want to work together achieve it for agents who see value in ''a % of something'' is better ''than 100% of nothing''.
Trevor, just looked at this property
http://www.inea.co.uk/ResidentialSales/PropertyDetails/Scotchbarn_Lane_Prescot_L34_2TG-Prescot-Merseyside-95BDA0534.aspx
There is loads of characters appearing everywhere at the top, the layout looks horrible, if you are going to compete you need a new site IMHO.
Jolly old Soul
Congratulations, the bank account can breathe now :-)
We have our meeting on Friday to cancel ALL the extras, just going back to the listings, dont even care about brand awareness.
A quick search on the INEA link below not one property within a mile of my postcode under £300K, RM over 500 properties. Where do you think the buyers look? Where do you think the vendors want their property adevrtised most?
This Trevor is what you are fighting against. It would take an overnight switch to your MLS by a majority of independants to make vendors ask to be advertised on the MLS like they do the big portals.
"There is more to this game than putting a property on rightmove or zoopla."
YES there is and you should be encouraging your independant agents to compete on what else is important to vendors and wholly encourage FSBO on the big portals as this will lead to you being able to demand lower fees from them.
We have just left RM today, just emailed back the edocument, There is life after RM :-)
This is the naffest website i have ever seen in a long time
http://www.inea.co.uk/ I would never join that.
Yes exacly you should be challenging Rightmoves fee model. As it is they are getting paid several times for listing the same property. Nice for them eh !
This is the real reason they dont want to take private listings...in the meantime they can continue the fee hikes because you enjoy the priviledge of them only dealing with Agents. Exclusivity comes with a price so as Trevor says you can't have your cake and eat it!
Sorry - "If the big portals", NOT: "If we the big portals"
If we the big portals were to take private ads (like Autotrader, as suggested below) then agents can presumably expect substancial reductions in their monthly subscriptions....
Trevor - A new start up traditional agency has also not contributed to the development of the portals should they be banned as well?
@Trevor Mealham INEA on 2013-01-06 18:47:44
I was referring to agents attitude to working together regarding Rightmove - not 'multi-listing.
By the way your 'advertorials' are becoming a little tiresome!
Happy Chappy. Its fair as the two main portals are suppose to provide agent only exposure. Agents money have built these portals on the basis private isnt shown. Private sellers and private tenants must have a choice. But if they wish to save agents fees then they should market in their choice of other ways. They can't have cake and eat it.
Any why do people not show their names on these discussions or companies so we know who they are and standpoint?
Agents pay for exclusivity. Zoopla and RM should respect their clients dont want 1000s private ads on site
Trevor....sorry i did not see it answered directly. So if a vendor wants an intermediary service (some do)
Note: These people will represent a small portion of the market, as most will want the benefits a full EA service brings.
According to you, these vendors should not be allowed access to portals. Your alternative is the vendor should be forced to pay the fee for a full EA service.
You talk about fairness how is that fair?
As i stated before your argument about contriobution to development is bogus.
The general public sees RM and Zoopla the autotrader of the property world. On Autotrader private and dealers can advertise side by side. Why not the same for property.
It's all bollox anyway !
HAPPY CHAPPY
I spent a long time answering the question had you read the below. I have no problem with online agents, and in fact traditional agents are also part online models. The problem I have is the property marketeers who subscribe as proper agents do to main portals and cheaply or at no cost allow private landlords or FSBO in at no or low cost. Estate agency is more than advertising a property.
RAY EVENS
Im already doing this in areas. The independents remain independent, yet united. They offer clients extra coverage via fellow local agents. Its already happening and via changing the restraints of the now 16 year old rightmove feed. INEA has created a hybrid data feed that allows agents on different softwares to cross share data. The rightmove feed as introduced via its corporate backers was designed in a way that it didnt allow different softwares to share data. As such we can unite agents as was common practice 20 years ago when agents worked together.
ACommuter
Good luck to you. The budget model claims to save £housands on traditional fees. Beleive what you want. With MLS agents working together bring more buyers to the table can raise offers by £housands which a budget model can't do. But then what do I know - Ive only done agency for 27 years. Give me the choice and I wuldnt touch a budget property marketeer with a barge pole. traditional agents networking listings will always reach more potential buyers. There is more to this game than putting a property on rightmove or zoopla.
LONG THREAD
I totally agree and its time zoopla and rightmove realise that they are upsetting many independents. Ask x agents if 5-10 years ago they would have brought in to building a platform where budget models could steal their business and place it next to proper agents adverts.
My guess is that main portals will have corporate adverts and private sales and lets when independents have left them in disgust.
The fact remains private adverts are getting on rightmove and zoopla. portals created, part owned or heavily influenced by the corporates. If the 65% of independents left in disgust. Shame. Independents desrve a place where corporates and FSBO and private landlords are not allow.
Independents, be they office based or property fee based online are fine by me.
As soon as emoove run out of investment they will be tits up, they market about 800 properties with 3 members of staff, they show 12 on the site but hey! If it was 12 they would need more properties than that, unless they are based in India. If you look on Zoopla you can see how many properties they are listing by date, it does not work out good news for them!
As someone living in the expensive south east, I don't see how I can afford not to use an online agent such as emoov when I put my property on the market in the spring - I stand to save thousands in commission. I very much admire the emoov business model - and no, I don't work for them. Also, having sold last time through a traditional high st agent, I deplored the whole way they did business and I'm anxious not to repeat the experience.
@Trevor Mealham INEA on 2013-01-05 12:35:55
In my view it is very unlikely one will EVER get independent agents working together because that it what they are - Independent!
Happy New Year.
Trevor you spent a long time not answering the question.
You cannot give a single valid reason why on line agents should not be allowed access to the portals.
As i have stated before a new traditional agent has contributed nothing to the development of any portal so should they also be banned from the portals or your MLS.
Many on line agents are what you call real agents the only difference is they have lower overheads.
I say again you are a protectionist and therefore anti competition.
Barry - What a funny question?
Why would they? and are you saying alike a budget agent charging £99 would pay a client £19,901 if they got the valuation £20,000 wrong?
Agents should know how to value. the trouble is that often a good agents faces some portals way out AVM (automated valuation model) that a vendor is silly enough to look at which works on historic data rather than future considerations such as planning, job losses etc
Also a bad agent may go in too high and another offering silly fees, leaving the best agent faced with silly fees and overpricing. Why do you think some portals show prices dropping many months in a row. The answer is that too many bad agents overvalue to then have to drop. Why. as they fear that too few listings cost a lot pro rata few listings, and they'd rather take another agents over value than have too few listings.
MLS means you stand a chance of earning a % of something rather than 100% of nothing. I'd rather have loads of sub comms to sell that a few overpriced stale listings. Agents working together can better walk away from overpriced hard to sell stock.
Good agents should be able to get a client a better price and take correctly priced listings when working and sharing stock
And if odd homes are overvalued, then thats happened for centuries.
Iny meeny miny Mo... I own that asking price on YOUR house Mr Vendor.
Ok Trevor so if your agent values it and then it needs a price reduction (as many do) does your agent stand the drop ?
Suggestion for agents.
Just looked at eMove's website. It says on this page; http://www.emoveuk.com/how-to-value-a-house.asp
eMove say: 6. Get a couple of valuations. Invite at least three estate agents to visit your home and give you their opinion of its likely selling price. Local estate agents will often value your property based on financial incentives involved for them
Maybe agents should have a form on valuation saying that if they guide is used by a FSBO or budget online estate agent then a fee of £250 will be charged for valuation consultancy. Seems fair in love and war.
I guess then their £99 deal would go out the window as someone would have to spend time and put fuel in to come down from Essex to do a valuation.
This agent direct had few listings.
Via INEA they have nearly 200 extra listings. www.optionlettings.com
Im here to help independents and via INEA mls idx technology subs from other agents auto back feed into their website. So nearly 200 extra listings from others where a sub comm can be earn't for just £50+VAT pcm
INEA is 90% agents property data exchange and only 10% portal. As such deals are being done B2B before in cases properties even hit the portals.
Interesting links:
1/ http://www.openrent.co.uk/ - 446 properties
2/ http://www.turtlehomes.co.uk/ - 101 properties
3/ http://www.makeurmove.co.uk/ - 550 properties
4/ http://www.my-let.com/ - 58 properties
5/ http://www.visum-sales.co.uk/ - 261
6/ http://www.myhouseadvert.co.uk/advertise-on-rightmove.php - 109 properties
So private let ads cost = low or no on RM and Z
Cost to real agents 10's of £100's x £1,000's in lost fees as two portal giants are favouring their purses to those who have put them there.
@Chris Cook. The up front £99 agents failed years ago. That was when Woolworths tried to sell houses for £99 as did some others and they just stopped when they discovered that their wild claims were a nonsense and they could not do a proper job for the money.
I have agents around me doing .75% fees and I just laugh and wait while they go bust. The fee structure has lasted for so many years now for the feeble minded to come along and think they can do it for 4/5th of bugger all they are very much mistaken. This is so many rely on doing a mortgage for every buyer. No see the mortgage man no get to buy house.
Happy Chappy - To network with INEA member agents we need to bring data in to send it out.
Our technology has been R&D over 5 years at a cost around £400k - my background is that I had 2 offices and a staff of 8 for many years and was brought out. Ive been in estate agency since 1986 so have based INEA on what we did as main/sub agents many moons ago when my working with other agents took turnover up 41%. My local office listings typically rose from 25 on sole agency (1.5%) and I changed with other agents my pitc to 2-2.25% for greater coverage via more local agent exposure. We rose locally to 130-150 listings.
To use INEA Im happy to give agents a free 2 month trial and after were just £50pcm+VAT
INEA is 10% portal and 90% agents property sharing platform. We are raising in SEO, but thats not our thing. We are growing as a main play data exchange. If agent A advertises in different places to agents B-C-D then good luck to them. We simply send property data to where agents want it. If A has the buyer and B the property, sounds like a sale potentially waiting to happen.
Im also the guy who in the background helped to get TESCO kicked out a few years back.
Im here for independent agents - not for the portals or corporates.
The reason MLS hasnt happened before nationally for UK agents is due to the missing data fields in the rightmove feed that MLS's in the USA, Canada, Spain etc do include.
Through technology developed to overcome this, INEA as a hub and NOT a portal can make MLS work between agents on otherwise non compatible softwares.
Let me show you. This agent direct has few listings. Via INEA they have nearly 200 extra listings. So when agents say they can't work together - they're nuts. Fact is if you try, the ladies and gents up the road are all in a similar boat.
Pooling resources and properties can achieve so much more than portals alone can give you.
I predict with agents getting hacked off with portals that MLS becomes main play in 3 years and portals take second place to agents.
If 65% of agents (independents pulled together you could have the main web presence and leave just corporates an budget FSBO sites on rightmove and zoopla. As an independent site corporates and FSBO could be excluded
I'll give any real agents a 2 month free trial.
Lastly, happy Chappy, even if an agent MLS through TEAM or Lonres, thats fine by me, or even if two agents simply dbl their stock via 1-2 properties a week via email thats fine. Its money in the agents pocket and extra client property exposure.
What is wrong is when a private ad sits next to an agents on main portals at NO or LOW cost that agents get charged for more each year
So happy chappy - try INEA, if it doesnt work youve lost nothing.
@Matt. Why were you still in bed at just after 9 am on a workday? If it wasn't a workday...........................!
Your English did not get any better with your second posting either so as I suggested go back to school. If you went to a London Uni then I would suggest that you do not mention it as you have demonstrated you have yet to grasp the written word. Anyway moving on I think I was right on the 'the property benefits from' comment since you carefully avoided responding to that remark, care to comment on this point yet?
As far as costs are concerned with Rightmove or Zoopla - stop moaning and either shut it or do something about it. As I said before I have no faith in you and this idea of your own web site and this has been cemented amply by the drivel you have spouted. Blabbing on this site will do you no good other than boost your flagging ego. It certainly will not improve our English.
QUAGMIRE – PROPOGANDA
If Rightmove and Zoopla want the likes of budget and free to list agents stock and their subscriptions then the likes of rightmove and zoopla must accept that as budget sites are taking agents revenue away, the they should accept agents can work together.
It makes sense to take the stance that one agent drops a main portal, whilst fellow agent drops another portal. Why should agent A not show agent B’s listings if private landlords can have their listings via budgets on main portals.
The OFT and TPOS and INEA accepts ‘’sub agency’’ as a practice where agents working together is beneficial to clients. Budget agents can’t do this as they don’t have enough fees.
Budget agents talk of what they save clients. The fact is budget agents often cost sellers and landlords much more than they save by not giving clients greater coverage via fellow agents. If a main agent sub instructs 10 other agents locally, then odds are a much better price can be achieved faster. A better price may be 2-3-4 times what a budget agent claims to save a client.
The other argument is that budget agents take their fee and really don’t give a dam once money is in the bank.
Dear Trevor, so you admit the only reason on line agents should not be allowed on the portals is protectionism and self interest.
How do you propose to overcome Zoopla and Rightmove in terms of exposure to potential buyers with your new MLS.
I suppose an agent must be a member of INEA to use your portal?
This is why its worrying. Hot off house tree s website. A 2 bed with garage.
"detached garage (en bloc)"..
But the govt think this is what the public want. Trouble is how do the govt make any tax of business models that dont make any money??
Thats the problem. People are falling for the this e marketing. Express Agency are somehow pursuading people they are better, charging more and selling the house cheaply. Idiots are falling for it . Onkly takes 4 in every town and they have 4000 properties to sell!!!
They are the same vendors whio would nt reduce their asking price with an agent offering office,staff, local knowledge, accomop viewing etc etc.
All they are offering is offering is national portals and a picture of Ian Botham?????? Go figure...
'Trouble is for you, the stats show that we sell a greater proportion of our stock than a High St agent.'
e Moov, would you be kind enough to share those stats with us and provide a source?
Thanks
Trevor Mealham – INEA
The Independent Network of Estate Agents
Thanks all for adding to the EAT discussion on Portals ripping off proper agents over low and no cost private landlord ads.
My own pitch is brief and I’d like to add to comments as below:
MATT: AGENTS PORTAL
INEA offers agents a free 2 month trial and as a MLS (multi-list) we are only 10% portal and 90% high tech agents property sharing platform that allows agents to:
• Cross share listings
• Gives agents to offer clients mass extra coverage via fellow independent agents
• Helps agents search listings they wouldn’t have had via the MLS hub (INEA)
• Helps agents offer sole agency at X% or greater MLS coverage at a higher Y% (The upsell creates the sub commission to pay the sub agents for any intros that complete.
We’re free for 2 months - then just charge £50pcm + VAT.
In London and surround were really taking off, and in cases are linking agents to do deals before listings hit the portals.
In London, Surrey etc, etc we have many listings agents can take as subs. We also have like USA technology that can back feed listings to agents websites via automation and mass increase their SEO thus generate more local enquiries.
The platform has been R&D over 5 years and gives agents a £400k MLS platform to work B2B. Around 4-10 agents are joining each week now.
JERRY AND HD – PORTALS SAY THEY DON’T TAKE PRIVATE ADS DIRECT
I guess this is TRUE. They simply get around it by allowing budget agents to do it for them which is UNFAIR to proper agents supporting free and low cost PRIVATE LANDLORD ADS
HD – Agents are coming together, approx another 6-10 pw
HD – at our last INEA meeting in cases RM and Zoopla are charging agents a great variance in pcm charges. Often like sized agents in like areas. Agents opening up and communicating and sharing info is very healthy.
ACE – contact me: tmealham@aol.com – I can help you gain 10’s of properties straight away or hundreds in London. As a MLS INEA has 1000’s of group shared sub listings that you and all members can offer to buffer your websites and offerings and start earning more revenue. I’d rather an agent pays A N Other agent than keep feeding the bulging purses of portals
eMOOV – Today there is much changing technology. The most advanced being MLS which your not using and couldn’t as budget fees don’t allow excess funds to pay other agents a intro sub fee. MLS technology eventually becomes the default in every country it runs in, but requires agents know how to upsell based on greater exposure via other agents. We’ve established that even at NO COST or lower than your cost private landlords can get onto zoopla and rightmove. There is estate agency methods that 20+ years ago away from the web hold much water that the antiquated agents as you call them or dinosaurs like me know, that newbie ultra budget agents of 2-3-4-5 years don’t have the first clue about.
SCEPTICAL – Are you talking of old agency as per the last 16 years years of RM or old agency pre agents mass using the web. Ive been in the game 27 years and pre RM agents networked and via a main agent collaborating with sub agents, many sales and lets were achieved. Its this which is very different to portal marketing that Im bringing back with an IT angle alike the USA which is a better way. Agents collaborating can get higher fees and do more for clients. Agents competing and having to decide which portal to be on as they are out budgeting agents pockets means sole agents can’t do as much as a collective. On-line+ real world agency is better than one or other on its own.
YARRUM95 – In Sept 2012 the OFT and (Gov) BIS released a 66 page document. In it it mentiones the wording ‘’sub agent’’ twice. As the OFT accept that agents working together is allowed. Then better than eMOOVs offer why not show other agents listings and they yours. If properties end up on portals that agents wouldn’t otherwise be on at £0 other than sub fees on results, it could actually kill eMOOVs model. If a portal rep says agents can’t work together, then if you feel giving clients greater exposure to get a better price or sell or let a property faster, then good luck to the portal rep who has to explain to the OFT why you should be doing LESS for a client. Such reps should go back to selling second hand cars. OFT accept main to sub agent dealing as does TPOS.
Bob Carolgees – Bob do you want more than 40 listings – INEA can help increase your access to listings. We have hundreds of properties sub available.
CHRIS COOK – Sorry you don’t. Real traditional agents work together. Pre 16 years ago 65-70% of transactions were likely to be Agent A with applicant and Agent B with the property. Sorry but budget agents can’t do traditional subbing. YOU DON’T charge enough to go this extra mile and achieve more for clients – FACT
GAH – The whole game changed Sept 2012 – CPR’s (based on 2008 statute) were ade into released regulation defining what estate and letting marketing and practice is. Many FSBO sites are now actually illegal and due to lack of Trading Standards officers won’t yet be picked up, but will be penalised I estimate in the next 12-24 months. There is a place for good online and traditional to work together and now the 2012 regulation should get rid of many budget illegal agent models.
BARRY – Any agent who doesn’t visit a property would be ultra stupid as they are open to PMA till Oct 2013 when PMA goes. Onwards CPRs (Consumer Protection Regulation is even hotter about misleading Joe Public. Taking a sub from a good other agent is also acceptable as the blame sits on their shoulders for PMA.
JUST SAYING – INEA agents are getting deals done in cases prior to properties hitting RM or Zoopla. Example – property gets notice served. Good tenants have no where to go. Agent B has a let come empty and via MLS lets sub agents know. The two agents align the tenants to see the property and they want it. ‘’Let Agreed’’ – no portals involved just good old fashioned proper agency. There is agency deals done outside the wonderful zoopla and RM platforms.
RAY EVENAS – Agents made them (the portals) equally agents working together can BREAK them. Or greed will break themselves.
Kind regards
Trevor Mealham
INEAmls idx
The Independent Network of Estate Agents
E moov had a property in Ackworth. Over valued and little interest. Vendor mystery shopped her own agent only to be told no two beds available in that location. She then explained cheap was the vendor and was 'told she isn't allowed to mystery shop them!' been for sale for approx a year. Rang me, listed it, sold it to someone who walked in our shop. Emoov couldn't have done that as don't have shop! Regards.
Sorry - Correction.
AGENTS still don't get it?
Online Agents only USP is that their cheap. In my opinion that Customers that wanted the cheapest deal, are normally the biggest pain in the arse.
We charge anywhere between 1.25% - 1.75% sole agency, and normally our higher paying clients are less fussy.
Online agents are basically ex-agents, who could never really cut it in the industry and sell a decent fee to a vendor.
Chris Crook
Here in lies your problem. You honestly believe that providing over inflated valuations, offering a 'showroom' and doing accompanied viewings is worth ten times more than the fee that we charge even though our approach sells.
Sellers seem to disagree that these things provide value given our rate of growth.
We make it very clear indeed how we operate. There is no need to make accusations of lieing in order to try to bolster your ill-thought argument.
Our clients know exactly what they need to sell a property. And it isn't a four figure fee or the extravagances that go with justifying it.
Trouble is for you, the stats show that we sell a greater proportion of our stock than a High St agent.
That, old chap, is all that the seller is interested in. Not your Perrier fridges, Minis and fancy window displays.
WT, IF they are listing hundreds it means they are not shifting them, ive heard how they operate, take a property with the value of £200k, listing it for offers over £150k and get tons of viewings! Total waste of everyones time.
Still don't get it?
Agents made them. Agents can now moan & gripe all they like but the major portals have got what they want.
If agents leave in numbers that could affect them they will just change their profile - even become EA's themselves.
Use them to your advantage. If there is no advantage to you then leave. They will do as they like!
Iam more worried about express estate agency. Sell your house in a month..and cheaply..dont get it and they are listing hundreds??
This whole online agent thing is utter nonsense.
All agents are online agents these days - how can a supposed online agent do better than Rightmove, Zoopla etc for coverage. The only difference is that they dont have an office. They may also have just one part time employee working from their back bedroom without a scooby what they are doing.
@ Chris Cook why would Emoov need to come out and value a property ? There are plenty of local based ea's willing to do it for free.
Do you have a showroom where people can come and look at my property ? you are kidding... aren't you ?
Calm down Dear does have a valid point, most agents on viewings don't have all the answers and refer to the vendor anyway (of those that do viewings).
@Calm down dear - Nice One Wise Acre!
I also haven't used emoov but just a quick search on their website can find the answers.....
Will you come out to value my home?
Not as such.
We are more than happy to market your property at a figure that is reasonable. We can give you a guide as
to what's happening in your local market too.
We do NOT dictate asking price to you like some estate agents will. It's up to you! - So basically you tell them what you want to market it for!
Do you have a showroom where people can come and look at my property? NO
YES. It was called our house you numpty. Best place for it. - This is a viewing, this isn't for them to find your property if they don't use the internet!
Will you come and show people around my property or leave it to an awkward situation between owner and potential buyer as I have previously experienced?? The answer again is NO!
NO. And it works a lot better than an EA who doesn't have a clue about the property's in's and out's. Ok you might know the area and the basics but you'd have to refer to us for additional info. Why not speed the process up. Besides when you meet a viewer you build a rapport and in our case it made the sale alot less stressful because we had a good relationship & good communication.
Having viewed with vendors and having friends who have done the same it is a very awkward experience! You clearly had a good buyer but not everyone will be so lucky, building up a good rapport with a buyer isn't always a good thing, some buyers use this to their advantage! If the EA takes note and actually shows a bit of noggin then they will know the answers to 90% of the questions!
No-one is scared of competition or we wouldn't be working at all but don't claim to do something that isn't true!
@ Chris Cook. You wrote to emoov the following. My answers below:
Do you come and value my property? NO
YES. We used an online agent - not actually emoov but I assume they're all similar - and yes they did come and value it was part of the service though not one used to gain business by over-valuing. The way it should be I'd say.
Do you have a showroom where people can come and look at my property? NO
YES. It was called our house you numpty. Best place for it.
Will you come and show people around my property or leave it to an awkward situation between owner and potential buyer as I have previously experienced?? The answer again is NO!
NO. And it works a lot better than an EA who doesn't have a clue about the property's in's and out's. Ok you might know the area and the basics but you'd have to refer to us for additional info. Why not speed the process up. Besides when you meet a viewer you build a rapport and in our case it made the sale alot less stressful because we had a good relationship & good communication.
CONCLUSION:
If you are scared of your competition then you need to look at your own business model and evolve. It's business basics. Online estate agents are doing a good thing for the industry. And it needs it!
Chris Crook, i'd say a good half of all viewings i've made through high street EAs i've rocked-up to the prop only to be greeted by the vendor.
Not that I have an opinion either way between on-line and high street EAs.
@GAH - At the time, they asked us some questions, and said that if we didn't offer proper estate agency services, ie visiting vendors/landlords for appraisals, carrying out viewings etc then we couldn't used their services.
Very true! We were told the same thing but i assume it must be just another sales technique!
Either that or they have changed their thoughts from being a leading website offering agents a service to set them apart from online agents whilst offering a wider advertising platform to being in t for as much money as they can possibly get! Maybe that's why the prices keep rising and rising and they are losing custom.....
@ Paul - The sites most likely to fail are the £99 upfront then £299 on sale sites, when a vendor has paid a fee they want to keep the property listed at the over inflated price for as long as poss, they dont care
This is a very good point!
I know businesses are gaining more and more success in the current climate and it is good for people to have a choice but in this case I believe online isn't the way to go, with a high street agent you get the best of both worlds, online advertising for the techy generation PLUS a personal service for those that dont want to buy from a computer/telephone!
Im going back 6 years ago or so here, when i started out on my own, but I remember our Rightmove Rep had to visit us in our offices before we could use their services.
At the time, they asked us some questions, and said that if we didn't offer proper estate agency services, ie visiting vendors/landlords for appraisals, carrying out viewings etc then we couldn't used their services.
Obviously this has changed, or RM don't care or have this rule anymore?
Over the past couple of years I have dealt with vendors who have tried it with some well known online agents, (not going to name and shame) who claim on their website that they come to value the property in the first instance etc etc. Well if sending a local photographer round is now classed as a valuer, then im a monkeys uncle.
Chris Crook, good points.
Forgot to mention on my previous post how much these OEAs must spend to get a new client, Emooooooove must be spending a fortune on top of adwords! Prob works out about £100 to make £395 then RM and Z take that off you, what's the point?
(Miles laffing in the background)
@eMoov.co.uk - we do everything that traditional agents do.....
Do you? No really, DO YOU?? Thought not!
Do you come and value my property? NO
Do you have a showroom where people can come and look at my property? NO
Will you come and show people around my property or leave it to an awkward situation between owner and potential buyer as I have previously experienced?? The answer again is NO!
I could go on but I think the point has been made. The problem here is people are using companies like yours as a middle man to advertise properties privately on the property portals because let's be fair that's all you are! You arrange viewings because the contact details are yours but please don't lie to people that you do everything a high street agent does because you don't!
The online agents will not survive, the prices are too low, when RM and Z put the price up every year they will really struggle, loads of OEA's have lost loads of stock over the last 3 months, HN for example used to ALWAYS be over 1000+ properties, now they have 719 for sale, it was in September they had 1000+ for sale. The stock is not being replenished so the numbers are dropping.
The sites most likely to fail are the £99 upfront then £299 on sale sites, when a vendor has paid a fee they want to keep the property listed at the over inflated price for as long as poss, they dont care, meanwhile the OEA is paying £30 a month for it to be there.
@ try it!
I like you comment about that being fair. I'm assuming by "fair" you mean suits your business. Whats fair for you may not be fair for larger agencies. If you advertise more properties, employ more staff, have large offices and more overheads is that "fair". I have a single branch agency with around 40 sales properties, on your model i would be charged more yet YOU have the ability to win and maintain this business as much as i do, maybe (and this is playing devils advocate and not directed at you personally), i am just better at my job than you. So winning more business by having a better service would mean rightmove charge me more for being an agency with high market share. Hardly "fair" in my eyes.
What else is "fair" - charging based on time properties are available, charging on geographic location 10 properties in Hull being worth 1 property commission in London?
The simple fact is fair is not always fair and all business have to have a charging model, they'res just does not suit you.
@ Happy Chappy
I am not on this forum to advise others to behave unprofessionally. I understood the discussion to be about the charges being made by the big portals, and I make the point that we all have the power to temporarily remove listings for a few minutes/hours/days... And that is very likely the only way you will ever get them to reconsider their greedy fee structures. I have heard of people wanting to temporarily leave a big portal but the portal gets them by threatening price hikes when they return. This way there is no price hike and the agent retains control. I suppose it would be a bit like going on strike…
It's up to individuals to decide what they are or are not prepared to do, besides comment on this forum. I did something about the problem, in my own way, and it worked for me, and I am sharing this with you all.
I'm sure other readers will decide for themselves, rather than stick their heads in the proverbial oven, because they were "advised" to.
@Blue
I'm confused. But yes, the more you advertise the cheaper pro rata each property will cost to advertise. But if I chose to be a small agent with a small number of properties to list, shouldn't I get a cheaper rate with a portal than another agent with perhaps more than 50 properties being listed?
A few years ago, Findaproperty charged us an amount per month to advertise up to about 20 properties. More properties resulted in a higher charge... And that was fair.
@ Try it
Surely it is the other way around, the more you list the cheaper they become. Bulk buying power.
If I asked you to sell my house would you charge me a lower rate than if I asked you to sell 20 of my houses ? or would I get a discount for volume ?
Try It - so you advised you would not advertise on rightmove prior to winning the business that is fine. Advising others to remove listings they may have won because they do list on rightmove or zoopla is quite frankly unprofessional.
yarrum95
You clever thing, you!
@ Jerry and @ derby agent
We currently pay Zoopla £319 plus vat. Pretty expensive when we only have a handful of properties (usually between zero and five) on the market at any one time. We argue that there should be tiered rates depending on number of properites being marketed. It is surely fairer that those who list more, pay more.
@ Happy Chappy
No, I did not ask my clients for their permission not to list their properties on Rightmove. My clients pay me to let and manage their properties. They don't care how I do it, so long as I do it, And I do so without Rightmove.
If Rightmove and Zoopla charged reasonable rates to the smaller agents, I would be on both. But they don't. They used us all to build their brand, and then greed took over. I seem to recall that when Rightmove started, it was described as a "Partnership" with agents. They were to be our "friends" with their "low cost" portal.
After some research, we realised that Rightmove were doing very little for us in terms of completed transactions. They were coming from Findaproperty. That was a few years ago, and we've had no reason to consider going back to Rightmove.
We have had a few clients ask if we would be listing their property on Rightmove, and we explained why we wouldn't. None took their business away from us. I realise though that this might be different in sales, which we do not do.
It is amazing though that giants like Rightmove could be toppled almost "overnight" by agents removing their listings...
@Hawkeye
Firstly I would like to point out that I was writing this comment lying in bed typing on my iphone with battery at 1%, so I thought I'd post before my battery died out on me.
As for English I graduated from a London Uni with a 2.1 so I think my English should be adequate I suppose :)
I run a Letting agent business with two branches in London managing few properties and offering Guaranteed Rent.
Rather than criticising how crap or good my English is and recommending I go back to school, I think you should have been more proactive and mature with what I was trying to get across. I you feel you can do it in a better way then I suggest you take lead and we'll listen to your idea.
As currently we'll all be paying £1000 pcm for Zoopy & RM per branch.
Thanks e-moove just shared your response with my Rightmove account manager. I am sure they will be pleased you are offeing me a service which cuts them out of my fee!!!!
Just the ammunition I required to negotiate with them
HD - That is the most sensible post I have seen from an EA on this subject. As I said, a good traditional agent will have no problem with the low cost guys beacuse you are looking at different types of client.
yarrum95
You can sign up right here at www.eMoov.co.uk
We'll take as many of your properties as you like.
Admitting defeat already eh? ;-)
Im glad their are online agents out there as it offers choice. These invariably aren't the type of clients that I want as an agent anyway.
The market is pretty slow in most of the country, every homeowner thinks they are an expert when it comes to selling their home and if they think they can do a DIY job for £200-£300 quid, good luck to them.
Very rarely do any of our applicants that enquire about a specific property from the internet go on to buy that actual property, its only once we have them registered that we can offer them other properties.
@ emoove and sceptical My costs to Rightmove equate to £30/mth per property. I assume everbody else is in the same boat. Why do we all not sign up with these agents and flood them with properties to handle...pay them their £9.99 inc VAT to advertise on 95% of the Countries Portals and we just sit back and wait for enquiries to come back to us. Lets see how long you could survive when you would require to take on the staff and offices to deal with the workload and we reduce our overheads accordingly. I would love to have someone else to deal with all enquiries and viewings....I may even be able to get a few days off to spend my savings and relax
E-moov
I have no fundamental problem with your business model and see no reason why Rightmove and Zoopla should not advertise your properties. You are clearly offering a service at a price your customers want to pay.
The unfortunate thing is that Rightmove and Zoopla do not !!
Online Estate Agents = the future.
The service given is not much different from the rip off old skool ea's out there living in the past. The Internet is the future and more and more agents will going down that route.
Turtle estates might take a while to sell and I am sure you old estate agents have properties flying off the shelves in this amazing economic climate.
I may be taking discussion off at a tangent but these new online sites are clearly demonstrating to Shelter the Government & the like that their business models are clearly relying on the TENANTS to paying the Landlord's costs. They are not only shooting themselves in the foot but giving a double whammy to the "lets hammer the no tenants fees to the agent campaign"
So, to be clear, traditional agents object to the portals allowing lower cost agents to list with them just because they happen to be cheaper?
Is that about the gist of it?
I suppose you'll say that as an online estate agent we are one of the 'DIY' firms? Yet we do everything that traditional agents do and pay Rightmove and Zoopla more than High Street agents do, pro rata.
Buyer behaviour, technology and therefore the industry itself are changing. Old fashioned, expensive agents simply need to keep up. Or die.
Sellers are sick of paying through the nose to cover the unnecessary overheads of estate agents.
The travel and insurance businesses have seen this change as a consequence of the internet. Estate agency is no different and, whilst lagging behind, will go the same way. Bleating that it's 'unfair' won't stop the culture shift toward lower fees provided by firms such as eMoov.co.uk
Please someone explain why the portals should offer antiquated businesses a slanted protectionism to the detriment of consumer value?
im currently negotiating as they want to almost double my subscription since they merged with DPG. I think this topic goes more towards the rising costs and agents that choose to work from home and offer nationwide services should pay a premium.
What are Zoopla charging everyone at moment?
I am not a Rigntmove employee but all agents should be acting in the best interest of the client. Removing listings clearly is not.
The actions of Rightmove and Zoopla are truly appalling.
I run a small agency dealing with both residential and commercial properties and have just 7 properties available at the moment. I would love to get the exposure these two companies offer, yet I cannot get it because they only offer completely inflexible prohibitive and expensive contracts. Zoopla are the worst and there sales staff say they can sort things out but always come back with the same fixed term contracts.
These companies will do nothing to tell help small companies (I imagine start-ups will find similar issues) yet they are seemingly prepared to bend their rules for the internet bucket shops.
I know I am banging my head at a brick wall but perhaps one day the people at the top will wake-up and give some of the smaller operations a better chance.
heres one of those dodgy sites http://www.my-let.com - but they never answer the phone.
Happy Chappy
Quite clearly a Rightmove employee!! No agent would ever say 'did you consult your clients before de-activating thier listings?'
@Hawkeye
Was that intentional ? making the same mistake you are complaining about ?
The market is changing and traditional High Street estate agents need to start looking at how they can reduce their uneccessary overheads to give better value for money to their customers rather than moaning about new market entrants trying to offer consumers something different, including new pricing structures. Rightmove is an incredibly powerful marketing tool and offers a cost per lead far better than anything else in the industry. Perhaps you should be aiming your fire at the complacent and vastly over priced local newspapers instead?
Who are Rightmove and Zoopla under fire from??? Answer .... Nobody.
This topic rears its ugly head every now and again, when questioned, the portals give the same response that they dont accept private listings, and thats it for another few months until the next story.
Agents wont come together to do something about it, and thats the end of the story im afraid.
Try It...did you consult your clients before de-activating thier listings?
"Turtle Homes is an online estate agent that offers a full selling service"
"Myhouseadvert is also an online agent, which charges £69 a month, also including Rightmove and Zoopla listings."
I am sorry traditional EA's but why should EA's with a different business model not be allowed on the portals.
I take it Trevor would have no objections to a new start up traditonal EA that has made no contribution to the development of the portlas advertising on them though.
This is just smells of anti competition and protectionism.
Good traditional agents will not need to rely on this to beat the competition.
@Matt - good idea but you do not inspire confidence as you have posted with a mistake in the wording. I quote 'as a agent'. Yeah really? Go back to school and learn how to use the English language to its best advantage. Whilst I am on this subject I would bet a pound to pich of dog poo that your property particulars (if you are an agent) state 'the property benefits from'.
My first reaction to this article was what about upad? Upad advertises as an online letting agent but seem to 'allowed' to advertise on both sites? Can't help but think that they make it up as they go along. Pay enough money and your in. One rule for one and no rules for another.
And if you don't believe @fedUP, try it! You don't have to leave a big portal, just inactivate some or all of your listings with them for a few days. See if you can live with out them. We did this, and left Rightmove a few years ago.
I have raised this ridiculous situation with Rightmove, who now charge us 1000% more than when we first started using them, and their response was that they don't allow landlords or vendors direct but cannot choose which agents to allow based on that agent's business model. It is a disgrace. several of my landlords have "jumped ship" to use "front" agents offering them to let their property by advertising on RM for free! Zoopla is no better and i have just cancelled my subscription there after they raised my rates in January from the FindAProperty rate of £35 pcm to £150pcm and described it as "excellent value for money" - they're having a giraffe!
I have decided to create a portal for only agents to advertise the fee will be minimal. As a agent I have had enough of these DIY agents. It will be a portal which agents dictate how it is run and developed which save us thousands.
Get in touch if you want to be part of it.
Hattatoglu@btinternet.com
This is going to be a good read ! Agree with FedUp and have done exactly the same by ditching one of the self created beasts, yes the extremely expensive one.
You cant beat a RM/Zoopla story to make us villagers grab their pitch forks and flame torches.........
TurtleHomes: The slowest estate agent (whether online or not) in the entire country
"Use Turtle Homes. We will sell your house within 3 years". I can just imagine them saying it...
What a ridiculous name and branding...
When will agents stick together and take legal action against RM and Zoopla?? They are obviously allowing online agents to be in clear breach of their own terms of membership. Something "real" estate agents can actually do something about via the right legal channels. We jumped ship and only use Zoopla now and we are still selling and renting. If everyone reading this called up their rep today at RM and Zoopla and kicked up a right fuss demanding damages, etc for this, then the portals would take note. Its not until their bottom line is hit that they will care...