A notice has appeared on the window of an agent that suddenly closed down saying that the company is under investigation for criminal fraud and asking for information.
The notice reads: “Warning to all tenants and landlords with Hot Homes UK. This company is currently under investigation for criminal fraud.”
It asks anyone with a complaint or information to ring the police fraud office on 0845 277 7444.
Both police and local Trading Standards are said to be taking an interest in the case. The Hot Homes website says: “Unfortunately due to circumstances beyond our control we have had to close.”
Hothomes UK opened in Plymouth last August, and handled sales and lettings. It also apparently started an EPC business, metroepc, this April, and there are suggestions that the Burridge family, who ran Hothomes, may have had at least one HIP business, Fast HIPS UK.
Last December, the Property Codes Compliance Board suspended the registration of a search firm. The Board said at the time that Ms K & Mrs J Burridge, trading as Search Pack UK and Epcworx (also previously known as Fasthipsuk, also trading as Southwest Energy Assessors, Hipsearchuk and Myhipsearchuk), had been removed from the Board’s register.
However, as EAT reported at the time, here was nothing to stop them, or other suspended firms, continuing to trade, as the PCCB is a voluntary regulator.
The Board said that Search Pack UK failed to meet its compliance requirements, and that the Plymouth-based company failed to submit information required for a compliance spot check within specified deadlines.
Details of HothomesUk.co Ltd at Companies House now say the firm is ‘active’ but there is a ‘proposal to strike off’.
Companies House also lists other firms, involved in EPCs and property searches, which appear to have the same director, Jacqueline Burridge, and addresses. A company called EPCworx.com was created in May 2010. An internet forum has complaints from people who claim they paid for but did not receive their EPCs, and DEAs who claim they went unpaid.
Landlords and tenants are now extremely concerned as to their missing deposits and rents, and the whereabouts of keys held by the firm.
On one internet forum, a furious landlord said they were owed £4,630 with allegations that the deposits were not protected. There are also suggestions that staff who worked at Hot Homes were left unpaid.
An upset tenant wrote: “I started renting through them a month ago. I paid a two hundred pound insurance policy, £675 deposit and £675 rent up front. I struggled very hard to get all this together and now when I went to pay the rent today they have gone.
“My landlord has not seen a penny so I have just paid him directly. This still leaves me £875 out of pocket and my landlord £675 out of pocket, no wonder they liked you to pay in cash!!”
The Westcountry Landlords Association said it has been receiving calls from worried landlords across the city since the weekend when businesses in Stoke Village reported people removing items from Hothomes’ office.
Hothomes’ directors appear to be Jacqueline Burridge and her daughter Kayleigh Burridge, but it is understood the business may have also involved Mrs Burridge’s husband Tony Burridge and others. There are suggestions on the internet that Tony Burridge had been bankrupt.
Hothomes, which was thought to have employed up to eight people, was also involved in commercial sales, conveyancing and financial services.
According to the local paper, the Burridge family moved to Plymouth from North Devon in 1998 and started a business producing EPCs in 2007.
A year later they started a business producing more than 100 HIPs a week.
They started Hothomes after HIPs were scrapped.
.png)
Comments
Unhappy Chappy: "I am a professional buyer and i ask for fully disclosed open book costing on everything i buy."
PLEASE distance what you do for a living with your private life!
I am spent over 30 years in the property industry. I have handled THOUSANDS of successful transactions on behalf of companies and individuals alike - but on the rare occasion I sell or buy for myself I am as amateurish about it as the next man.
WHY? Because it is personal. It is not a business decision - it is a lifestyle choice. I do it with my heart not my head.
You forget - as a professional buyer, you know
* WHAT you want
* WHEN you want it
* HOW MUCH you will pay
The VAST majority of homebuyers (and sellers, for that matter...) are complete amateurs and know none of the above. They see:they want. On the list of 'skills' an Agent (or anyone involved in housing transactions...) needs - 'sales' comes four or five down the line. PSYCHOLOGY comes higher! You have a hundred houses to sell: you have a hundred neurots selling them - each with very different neuroses... If you don't appear to understand the animal; you stand to lose the business. If a vendor thinks that you are siding with the buyer (because the buyer is offering 100% or more of what you ABSOLUTELY KNOW is the best offer the property should achieve...) they will scream, shout - and disinstruct you even if it means that they get five grand less with the next Agent! THAT is how much of a knife-edge an Agent stands upon.
If you think for one second that you are going to get "fully disclosed open book costing" then you are sadly mistaken. MANY Listers you will come across won't even know how much it costs to market a property.
Do me a favour - prove me wrong. Go and get a dozen appraisals of your property. Tell me the results.
THEN... tell me - of the dozen, which of the Agents would you use - and WHY?
Cost won't even come close to your reason. If it does, you are a lost cause, I'm afraid...
Lets hope you never need heart surgery Unhappy, if you want costs cut, you get corners cut to pay for it. What corners would be cut to gget you the cheaper surgery. And on a fixed fee? would they stop the operation once your spend limit was reached and the work on your dodgy jum tart was no longer viable?
How about cheaper dental work, that will make you smile, albeit a bit crooked.
Go for it Unhappy, you will make some poor unsuspecting estate agent very happy when you:
Insist you house is worth more than it is.
Commit the agent to newspaper ads, brochure printing, phone costs, petrol costs, staff costs, window space costs, etc. etc.
You will then get an offer you dont like, and reject it.
You will then get a similar offer 4 weeks later, reluctantly take it.
You will then look for your next purchase to tie in, you wont find anything you like, your expectations will be too high.
You will after much wailing and gnashing of teeth get a chain together.
You will then find your buyer wants a reduction because there is something wrong with your lovely house that survey reveals. You will give your agent the run around about this.
Because you took so long you will find the buyer at the bottom of your chain pulls out, you will want your property back on the market, and.... 6 weeks later, you will repeat the process.
Dont phone me.
Fixed price (ha) in your dreams.
Whoever does it for you, will regret it.
Good luck anyway (please stop talking rubbish)
Wardy and FBA thak you for your input.
Wardy....I would not buy from PC world at all. I am a professional buyer and i ask for fully disclosed open book costing on everything i buy. I am happy for my suppliers to make a decent profit we agree what is acceptable and work on reducing the the suppliers costs together to improve there profit margin and reduce the price to me. This results in a happy supplier and a happy buyer and sustainable repeat business.
I will insist on this on my next house sale as well no % fee for me and no it wont be with an online agent either
Out of interest, do you go into PC world and ask what the whole sale price of a lap top was before you buy?
...just a thought.
I don’t know about anybody else but we do work out a marketing cost based on each instruction. I’m not happy to tell you what it is but I'm sure you would be shocked. (in a good way)
With regard to negotiations you would also be surprised how much leverage we have with the final agreed price. Often agents will negotiate past the point a vendor would have accepted, happens all the time. Also it’s not just the price you are negotiating, additional information, possible planning permissions, re visits, comparable evidence and a world of other stuff you sometimes have to do to get a buyer up in the money.
Stone the crows, Unhappy !!
Dead horses and flogging springs to mind.
After your lengthy posts, the answer to your final question is........ NO
Keep your business, or place it with an online lister.
Peebee - A man who never admits he is wrong is destined to make the same mistakes over again!
:0)
I do not know the workings of an EA better than you or an EA. I hve never said that!
"This is a typical EA mentality!" yes I stand by that it is a typical EA mentality, go look at all there websites and fee structures I have not said at any point you are one.
I respectively request you refrain from childish rants re my nic. :0)
I accept that my list are not fixed in accounting terms, i perhaps did not appreciate your understanding of such terms. Which is why i was keeping it simple
So lets look at the costs
Rent = x fixed
If an agent has 3 employees earning 40K a year this = 120K year
Utilities not fixed but can be budgeted
Advertising not fixed but can be budgeted
Please expain the varibles as i really dont know what they are -
Do you know the priciples of activity based costing
If so you will appreciate my argument........`work out how much each part of the process costs and charge accordingly....you dont know how many instuctions you are going to get but you can work out the average cost of an instuction and charge accordingly.
It seems to me that getting market share of instructions is vitally importnat to Agents - hence the reason there are so many over valutaions - Yet they take them on on a no win no fee basis - I agre unsold stock in this structure relates to losses
Ok i got it the wrong way round but you get my point
As stated the 500K house took less activity by the estate agent to get to completion than the 150k therefore the cost to the agent must have been higher yet the 500K house gave the Estate agent more revenue......Why!
I stand by the fact that EA do not negotiate with buyers....they are legally bound to communicate the exact offer made by the buyer to the seller
EA says "Is that offer your best offer?" buyer answers yes what happens next ?
No i am asking an Agent to expain the costs of what goes into marketing a property...you cannot tell me what that is as you have no idea you are not an Agent
As i have said before many estate agents will go to the wall over the next few years....Most rely on volume to cover the costs on NWNF basis.
EA's may find more sellers like me who refuse to instruct on % fee basis. Do EAS want there business or not!
Fun Boy Agent: I take your post as an agreement with what I was saying - however, as a practicing Estate Agent whose career spans at least four decades (according to our previous exchanges...); also as one who has recently had a proper go at me for what you consider to be good reason (I never admit to being wrong however I do reserve the right to amend previous decisions based upon new evidence so there is hope for us yet methinks... ;o) ), perhaps you would comment on my review of Unhappy Chappy's post.
For all I know, the world of Estate Agency may have moved on (or back...) more than I am aware - one who is walking the walk is far more qualified to comment than I...
I believe Archaeologists have evidence of ancient Greek and Roman estate agents offering lovely villas (at a price).
Aged profession indeed.
How good would those Greeks/Romans have been with Rightmove?
Unhappy Chappy:
Looking at your post, you seem to think you know the workings of Estate Agency better than I do. Let's test that:
"This is a typical EA mentality!"
WRONG!! Firstly: trust me - there is NOTHING 'typical' about my mentality!
Secondly: as you missed it the first time - I shall repeat my earlier statement.
I AM NOT AN ESTATE AGENT!!
I respectfully suggest you rename yourself Unhappy Chappy Who Doesn't Read...!
"That is because EA's costs are mostly fixed ie
Rent
Wages
Overheads"
WRONG!! Of the above, ONLY rent is really 'fixed' - but re-evaluations every three to five years need to be taken into consideration. Wages - variable dependent on turnover. "Overheads" - uber-variable... and ENTIRELY relative to turnover.
"More instructions = increased cost - No...
Instructions add very little to the cost of running an EA."
WRONG!! The costs (fixed and variable...) of running an Agency are NOT proportioned over the number of Instructions that Agency lists in a year. They are proportioned over the SALES that emanate from the Instructions. Also - the more instructions; the more staff you need in order to service them effectively - further adding to cost with no guarantee of return. Capiche?
"Less income per sale = Insolvency - No
It = more instructions from vendors eager to maximise profits. = more market share."
WRONG!! More market share of WHAT?? Unsold stock? Negotiators sitting twiddling thumbs? Or just debt...?
"As long as you cover the costs for the extra instructions and stucture your price to cover your fixed costs you are on to a winner."
WRONG!! Using YOUR fee basis, how can you possibly do this? You don't know how many instructions you are going to get; you don't know how many of them are going to sell. You just HOPE that you are going to get more. AND - if everyone adopts the same principle you suggest - where is your magical USP then?? You are back to being a fish in the barrel.
"I have not said it makes a sale more likely but i disagree it will make a sale less likely."
Erm... sorry? If it won't make a sale more likely - then why change what you do unless it cuts costs or makes the business otherwise more profitable - which you cannot demonstrate?
"Just expalin to me what an EA would do differently for a £150k house that you would not do for a 500K house..."
Think you've got those the wrong way round, haven't you...?
"In fact there were more viewings of the 150K..." Yeah - I would expect that. More prospective buyers the lower down the price ladder you go.
"...more so called negotiations and a longer chain to manage on the 150K" Price here is irrelevant. You take two unrelated transactions and use them to gereralise a market that runs into hundreds of thousands of transactions. Don't be so wet behind the ears!
"Agents do not sell houses nor do agents negotiate with buyers...a buyer makes an offer the agent relays the offer to the vendor there is no negotiation...."
Is that right? What about when an Agent,refuses all offers below a certain pre-agreed threshold and then reports their actions - ALONG with an offer that the vendor WOULD consider as acceptable? Or when an Agent starts the offer discussion with "Is that offer your best offer?" The only thing we seem to agree on is that, in the main, a house will sell itself - AS LONG AS the buyer is made aware of its' existence, that is...!
You obviously believe that ALL it costs to market a property is thirty quid or so for a board and a few sheets of A4 for the details - and that is all that Agents put into the deal.
If that were a correct summing up - then the Estate Agency profession would have been extinct GENERATIONS ago...
Pbro agent - If there was no differentiator i would pay the lower fee of course.
So what would happen......
The agent charging 3K flat fee would pick up ALL the business of the higher end of the house value chain the agent charging fixed fixed fee at the lower.
Which agent would you prefer to be?
and you have not listened i am advocating flexibility in fees i.e a range of fees.....one size does not fit all....and the system has not evolved over decades....there has been the same system for decades....you rightly say people vote with there pockets and clearly the vendors with higher value properties could do just that.
I put it to the agents that the main negotiations in the housing market should be between the vendors and the agents.
Unhappy you didn't answer my question.
If there were only two agents in a town (assuming fee is the only differentiator) and you were selling a house at 100k, would you pay the agent who charged everyone £3000 to sell a house knowing that a vendor selling a house at £500k could also pay the same fee, or would you opt for the other agent who offered all his clients a fee of 1.5%?
The problem is this - I suspect you would opt to pay the cheaper fee - as would I. This would mean that most other vendors of low priced houses would do too, making a £3000 fee unsustainable for the agent offering the fixed fee.
Inevitably he would have to put up his prices as he lost business at the lower end of the market, making it more expensive for everyone selling border-line properties, sending more business to his rival (we must remember there are far more houses priced 100,000 than 500,000), the only way the fixed fee agent could compete would be to offer a lower fee for the vendors selling the cheapest properties - surprise surprise, the fixed fee agent has started on the path to offering a percentage fee.
It is not an accident that agents work this way and it is a pricing system that has evolved over decades. You could argue that it can evolve again, but whilst agents compete in an open market and vendors continue to think with their pockets, I think in the main this system is here to stay.
So Peebee
Are you saying a fixed % fee id the ONLY model you would endorse - This is a typical EA mentality!
Lest take your arguments
More instructions = increased cost -
No Most EA's take instuctions on a no win no fee basis
That is because EA's costs are mostly fixed ie
Rent
Wages
Overheads
Instructions add very little to the cost of running an EA
Less income per sale = Insolvency - No
It = more instructions from vendors eager to maximise profits. = more market share
As long as you cover the costs for the extra instructions and stucture your price to cover your fixed costs you are on to a winner
Just expalin to me what an EA would do differently for a £150k house that you would not do for a 500K house.....my family have sold both recently...in the last 12 months the level of service was identical....~In fact there were more viewings of the 150K more so called negotiations and a longer chain to manage on the 150K
I have not said it makes a sale more likely but i disagree it will make a sale less likely
Agents do not sell houses nor do agents negotiate with buyers...a buyer makes an offer the agent relays the offer to the vendor there is no negotiation....if its not to the vendors liking he declines simple....the negotiation is between the buyer and the vendor the agnet is merely a communicator and a pointless link in the chain in my opinion!
Adapt or Die.......if you are an agent not attarcting new stock maybe you may want to look at your fee structure and marketing thats what i am saying!
Unhappy Chappy: Very kind of you to turn your attentions to the plight of poor old Estate Agents in their hour of need.
How will this actually BENEFIT them?
More instructions? Increases costs.
Less income per sale? More chance of insolvency.
Happier vendor? Not a snowball's hope! A happy vendor is a SOLD vendor. NOTHING in your 'proposition' makes the chances of achieving a sale more likely than in the current fee structure. Probably LESS likely...
(by the way - if a vendor can negotiate a fee better than an Agent can... then the vendor should either be selling the property themselves OR look for an Agent who is better at the job!)
Taking your example of flexible pricing - Hatched are really only offering ONE fee - or at least making one look so attractive as to deter the great majority of vendors from taking either of the other two. Perhaps the company spokesperson would like to give a %age breakdown of take-up? Their £420k revenue from 2010, assuming 100% comes from listings (which I am certain is not the case but I will work on that premise anyway...), equates to 1055 listings. That, for a 'nationwide' service does not seem unreasonable, seeing that most Estate Agency offices will have two hundred or so instructions p.a. as an absolute minimum requirement - and some hitting three or four times that number...
Oh - and, for what it's worth, there is NO WAY a house worth £150k gets identical levels of service to one worth a million (unless the 'service' simply involves uploading to a website or two, that is...). Show me the owner of ONE million pound plus pad that would accept THAT argument as valid OR acceptable!
Peebee - an Agenda would be obvious if i and one - OK I am trying to assist a part of the british economy that is stagnating....ie the housing market.
I am advising any struggling EA's to be more flexible in there fees to gain market share and turnover
I am advising Vendors to negotiate better terms so they can spend the savings on the next property rather than to the agents!
I am yet to find a local Agent that openly advertises more than one payment method other than
1. NWNF %fee
2. upfront payment
In this forum Hatched was the only one advising anything remotely different...and i do not work for them!
Wooden Top I am not looking just at the ££s
As you say i am talking about service!
So we have established that a £150K, 500K and £1M property marketed at the same EA receive the same level of service....do we all agree?
So why should the vendors pay differing amounts?
p.s i agree I could lose my job for a myriad of reasons, price level of service etc.
Unhappy Chappy: Sorry - but to bang on the same drum, for so long - you have an agenda. You simply don't want to reveal it...
I disagree wholeheartedly. There are a myriad of 'choices' available to vendors. Fixed Fee with/without NSNF; Percentage Fee (anything from 0.5% up from what I see...) with/without NSNF; up-front marketing costs eith either; NO up-front with either; inclusive/exclusive advertising - H£LL!... how much MORE 'choice' do you want?
Anyway - what does it matter? You are not looking for an Agent - if you were then LOCATION would be one of your bullet points, wouldn't it? Even if you were, a great many of those who post here prefer to do so anonymously and they ain't going to 'come out' just to gain YOUR business, are they?
As to what do I charge? - sorry but I ain't an Estate Agent! But, for the record, if I were - I'd be charging a PERCENTAGE fee - that you wouldn't pay, I strongly suspect.
But, that's fine - we all enjoy the power and freedom of choice, don't we...? ;o)
Unhappy chappy,
Pay peanuts you often get a monkey.
You don't understand EA. Your just looking at £'ss. Your paying for a service and all the associated overheads that go with running that business, not just your property advertising. That is why it costs more than an internet listing. Traditional EA is far superior than any internet listing company, which is reactive marketing and is a fraction of sold properties. You also do yourself no favours with people who do not have or will not use the internet to buy property. EA have long lists of these people which you will never see.
I suspect you get a big salary to afford a £500K property and all the trimmings and overheads. Some may argue you are overpaid ... be careful someone will do it for less. Now you wouldn't like that.
Peebee - i have not answered your question because i have no Agenda. I have not heard from on EA here that offers the type of deal that i have outlined. Do you?
You say vendors have a choice do they, I mean really do they....what choices do you offer your vendors?
I have only really ever seen 2 Choices - payment of a small fee up front or standard percentage on fee. That to me is not a choice.
Unhappy Chappy: "...if a local EA offered an initial listing fee of £200 with max total fee of say £3K for the same level of service you provide that all people selling property valued over £150K would go to that agent and thus win massive market share!"
Surely in EVERY town there is at least one Agent who offer Fixed Fee deals - I would hazard a guess that the great majority are far less than the £3k you suggest as a benchmark.
So WHY, then, can I ask, do these Agents not 'clean up' in the way that you suggest?
People have choice. Why do you want to change that?
I repeat my previous question that you have so far evaded - what is your agenda?
I O - I have already stated that £200 total fee is too little and does not make business sense, however In my opinion, on all but the the typical FTB properties 2% is over the the top....but thats my opinion!
So woud it not correllate then in your way of thinking that if a local EA offered an initial listing fee of £200 with max total fee of say £3K for the same level of service you provide that all people selling property valued over £150K would go to that agent and thus win massive market share!
@Unhappy Chappy
You seem to iss the point twice.
The fuirst point by JT is indicating exactly what I was saying - that if you charge peanuts apart from getting monkeys you also get a greater chance of those peanuts not covering the costs of running the business. So you try and pile it high and sell it cheap but all you end up doing is using the next fee to pay the costs of the last job.
My point exactly - clerarly a ridicuous business model. There may well be agents charging 2% just as likely to commit fraud. My point is if you charge in effect about 0.2% fees then you are almost certainly going to end up in difficulty. And the more you are in difficulty the more likely you are to take desperate measures inclusing using other people's money for the wrong purpose.
Seems blindingly obvious the more you cut fees unless you also provide a cut service the more likely you cannot afford a proper one. Obvious correlation and risk to me, but then maybe it's just my simple way of looking at things i.e. common sense and practical reality.
It got hijacked at the first point made by JT, there are as many poor agents out there charing 2% per sale as those charging a flat fee.......the price an estate agency charges has no correlation to them committing fraud.
How on earth did this story get so hi-jacked. Who on earth cares less about what on-line agents do. My guess is they probably sell only marginally more properties than vendors doing it themselves, but who cares?
The whole point of this story is about people trying to be all things to all people instead of what they are good at if indeed they are good at any of them. I sincerely doubt this mother and daughter had any expertise in any of the dozen or so fields they dabble and messed up in.
Interestingly enough the one thing they never seem to have done is try on-line estate agency.
So can we all please pack in posts on that separate subject?
The issue here is amateurs and unlicensed, unqualified and useless fraudsters who do not, needless to say, have cmp
If that interested in in-line agents why doesn't one of them posting here write an article and send it to Rosalind so it can then be listed and shot down in flames in isolation?
isold is not advertised and or promoted as TESCO, if it were, and it were promoted through Supermarket branches, Locals, and petrol stations they would absolutely blow you away, and plenty of us 'real' estate agents too.
Also, If Spicer listed all their FJL, Haart etc stock + their repos on just one 'cheapo' internet site, their total stock offering would blow you away too.
Where is that egg? I must go suck it.
Relax, they won't yet for the reasons I stated, but they will one day, so shine while you can.
So in the same sentence you managed 'you agents don’t get it' and 'we are ESTATE AGENTS' make your mind up.
You are displaying the typical view of online only listers.
You said that you charge for the work you do. Fair enough, how can you justify £240 for some shoddy camera work and 30 minutes of uploading time? and you reckon we are ripping people off!.
If you use your other model, take chappies £500,000 property. Your fee would be £2500. For what exactly? A rightmove listing? You can get it a lot cheaper than that and in some cases do your own photography.
That’s not value for money in my book, like I said you have 60% of the market to sell to at best.
If you like I can supply some links to various hatched listings and photos and we can see if the readers would consider that £240 or £2500 well spent. Coming on here and suggesting traditional agents are rip offs is treading on thin ice.
Hatched.co.uk: "We sell a healthy percentage of houses (45%)."
Meaning an UNhealthy 55% of your PAID customers get NOTHING for their money!
(Apologies, by the way, to Fun Boy Agent, if you feel I am being condescending to Hatched.co.uk)
Fun Boy Agent
iSold in an online agent and was set up by Haart & Tesco.
That completely destroys your last post...
On the note of people who want low fees are complainers - absolute rubbish. I can genuinely say that our complaints are pretty much non existent. People complain about you high street agents regularly because you don't offer value for money (i.e. £3,500 average fee).
We don't get complaints because we DO offer value for money - we tell a customer what they are going to get in terms of service with both the positives & negatives of how we operate. And we don't bull shit them with gauranteeing them a buyer like 'normal' estate agents do...
You agents just don't get it...
We charge for the work we do (i.e. up front). We sell a healthy percentage of houses (45%). We have 2 offices in regions (soon to be 3), rather than every town in sight (meaning our overall costs are lower) and we don't waste our time doing valuations for people that are just wondering what their house is worth. And our clients are more moitivated (because we charge up front)
It's pretty simple really. We turned over £420k last year with approx 15% profit margin. (Would have been over 20% but we invested money in opening an office in Exeter 6 months ago)
It is completely beyond me why you don't get it and why you can't just appreciate that we are ESTATE AGENTS and we offer an estate agency service, just like you do. We just don't rip people off...
PS Our fall through rate is 15%
Hatched doesn't value houses, in my experience his vendors get local agents to do that and then list it with him. Fair play to him though, of the two listings I've lost to him in the last 6 months they have both sold, and for what I understand, reasonably close to the asking price. A third I am aware of though was massively overpriced and seems to have come off the market after 8 months, during which time we sold the house NEXT DOOR for £159,000 less than his vendors were asking - nothing like a bit of local knowledge.
Wardy is right with his figures, we also generate about 60% of our sales from online sources, but the remaining 40% come from hot-boxing, office walk-ins, referrals from sister offices and switching following a viewing on another local property. None of which Hatched and his brother online agents can offer.
To answer Unhappy's question, I too would turn down a £2000 fee on a £500k listing, however I would like to ask him a question of my own: If in order to make a reasonable profit, offer the same fee to everyone and offer no sale no fee; I could charge everyone £3000 flat rate - I'm sure you would pay it on your £500,000 house (0.6%), but would you pay it if your were selling a £100,000 2 bed? i.e. 3% of the sale price?
Somehow I would doubt it.
@ f b a , no sale, no fee. (£2k up front fee ? be real).
Is that an upfront fee, or no sale no fee you refer to Tim?
If you would not take on his £500k property for a flat fee of £2k, would you take on another £175k property for the same flat fee ?
Wardy,
Do you think it is possible Hatched's 45% could be merely 'sale agreed' ?
What % of the 45% would then end up in the 'fall through' category due to poor or non existent sales progression?
Of the 1.3m properties Rightmove will advertise, what % will come from 'online listers' ? Very little I would guess.
As a 'one man band' cottage business I can see how an 'online business' would work for its owners, but I can't see how it can work for its clients. Any Corporate could go the same way (online agency/call centre) at any time and blow the one man band boys away.
Why don't they?
Market research will tell them they would:
Attract the wrong properties
Attract the wrong clients
Create more work for less profit
Easily fall foul of current legislation
Be unable to provide good service attracting complaints
Attract Ombudsman scrutiny and fines: re above
Most of all.. They know the strong independents in all areas and towns of the UK would gobble up all the good clients and property leaving them the difficult penny pinching complaining clients with the overpriced properties that they are unlikely to sell.
Furthermore, the big corporates would only serve to damage their own branches if they launched low cost 'online' propositions as the type of business the typical corporate agency attracts is the very business that would be tempted by such a proposition. In other words, they would steal their own work.
Spicerhaart were going to go into business with Tesco. It didn't happen. Why?
If it had, dear Mr Hatched wouldn't have a business, but Wardy, if they had gone ahead I think your business and mine would have been stronger as a result.
Please Unhappy, go use Hatched and report back, you can be our straw poll.
Cheers Matie.
In my experince most Vendors who want the cheapest fee are usually difficult to deal with and are the type of people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
You know the sort of person ?
The sort who goes to the local 'eat as much as you like Chinese restaurant' and then complains that the food isn't up to scratch.
Or the sort who moan on a bright summer's day that it's too hot.
Yes, petty little people and no place for them on a website like this which should be for genuine agents to exchange their views.
despite what our old mate hatched would have you believe there is a bit more to estate agency than simply uploading a few pictures to the lowest RM subscription available. In the one office we have, only 60% of sales can be attributed to an online source. 40% is a massive cut of the marked that the online listers miss out on. no one can tell me they manage 'best prices' with only 60% of the Market to sell to.
I also looked at hatched. they have one property on in my neck of the woods that has been on for about 8 months. A quick look shows exactly why. Ironically the same property has been taken by iSOLD as well. those particular vendors are not moving anywhere. I'm not even going to bother touting it.
45% sale conversion rate I also find hard to believe. Any agent with rightmove plus can substantiate this. In my area their conversion rate is 0%
Go with him unhappy. Make his day.
I checked his offerings in my area. Of over 3000 properties on offer he has 4. The 4 he has are all overpriced, not sold. Moreover, the are all bottom end. The photos are dire, and the spelling mistakes on his main website follow the trend into his clients property details.
You fit each other perfectly
Hatched Thank you - i will consider your professional offer......Independents, corporate agents can you offer me anything better?
Unhappy Chappy.
No the service is exactly the same for whichever option you choose.
We visit the property, measure up, take photos, do a floorplan, a description and then get the property on to the big 5 websites - Rightmove and such.
We arrange the viewings, negotiate the offers and see the sale through to the end. I personally have been an estate agent for 14 years, so I know how to negotiate and deal with any potential problems and pitfalls through the sales process...
In terms of differing services, the main difference is we don't go in the local rag, we don't have an office in your town and you would have to show people round, but no great heartache there we don't think -
- Papers are out of date
- How many punters walk around estate agents offices?
- And you know your house better than anyone!
If you're interested, I am working tomorrow and we work until 4pm (just like a 'normal' agent)
Look forward to hearing from you
Regards
Hatched, Thank you for your clear and concise answer!
and stating exactly which company you are....Good use of the site by the way!
Is this a sole agency deal?
Do you offer the same level of service for the different fees
Would you say this service is any different to the one offered by Paul of Fun Boy?
@FBA The mortgage valuation is at £500K you can come and value it higher to get the instruction though.
Yes i am aware of the law and if you are you should be able to answer my question rather than evade it
Are you will list my house for a £1 that will make you a loss....silly man...I have already said that I believe £200 to be unrealistically low... Please tell us your trading name your a great advertisement for your company
Ha ha...This thread is funny. I love it when one of my fellow online agents throws a comment in there. All hell breaks loose!
Anyway, Unhappy Chappy, we charge a flat fee of 0.5%(+VAT of course) on a no sale, no fee basis
Or, if you wanted our most popular option, then £240 up front and £240 no completion
We go on Rightmove and all the other websites and have sold around 45% of all properties listed so far this year, so our conversion rate is up there with the high street agents - We just won't rip you off
Would that be of interest?
Unhappy,
£1
Here we go again - thank you for accepting my point
Now on to your next one, you are not selling a product, a brand or even properties you are a selling a service. I am trying to establish what is an acceptable level of payment to an agent for a 500K house will any agents advise me please?
Unhappy,
I have thought about it, and you are right.
A corporate agent and online lister will probably both produce low offers for you to consider.
Do you know the law on offers?
I do
Unhappy.
Fee to you... £1 no sale no fee.
Who says it's worth £500k? you? It prob wont sell, so I dont get paid, whatever the agreed fee !!
£1 low enough for you?
Robbie I agree.....they need to standards must be raised Agents should be more heavily regulated but then again vendors and buyers should do more rersearch before jumping on and off the property ladder.....If the industry is not more heavily regulated fees must be lowered that is the point of my posts so......
FBA- Why would the offers from via an online agent be less than through corporate...please tell me...If i see a house i want to buy i make an offer....but i make the offer face to face with the agent i tell the agent to phone the vendor and pass that offer on to the vendor there and then....would you do that FBA would you phone it through there and then??
Unnamed person - yes i would sell take the instruction @ 2000...If i have 2 properties one at 200,000 and one at 500,000 I would expect the same level of service on both and therefore to pay the same price
Paul - Do you offer a flat fee to your vendors If i asked you to accept £4000 flat fee on my £500K instruction then would you take it.
What extra marketing do you do on 500K house that you don't do on 300K house
Wardy - Thank you for stating your position, I get a better service than you offer for £2000 from Online agent at £200 thank you for offer.
Come on EA's tell me what is the minimum you would take as flat fee to market my £500K house
Robbie,
Crooks exist anywhere there is money. This goes from school playgrounds to top line banking and Governments...... And everything in between.
It is not estate agency that is broken, or the legislation we work with.
These people are 'wronguns' , they were captured, and I think you will find they will be punished.
So what is wrong.
I think we should licence burglary (any votes?)
Robbie its friday and we're having our weekly "online listers" vs "estate agents" debate. If you want to have a serious and relevant discussion, go and read the fininancial times or something.
Touche (accent on the e) on the corporate agent point, however, they will still have sold considerbaly more in the area and probably obtained a higher price.
The answer to your question is no. I would not list a £500,000 property for a flat fee of £2,000. There are plenty of cheap, low quality agents that will. There are always customers that will go for the cheapest option and they are probably 90% of the people that moan about estate agents.
A quality agent will provide a quality service from start to finish and a satisfied vendor will be more than happy to pay a worthwhile commission. Just as I would not walk into Versace and complain that I can get a white t-shirt at Asda for £2.
It is a pity these posts have wandered so far from this alarming story. Does no one want to discuss how standards really must be raised in the industry? Google the names in the story and see what landlords and tenants are saying. Surely, it is time that agents passed basic tests as to their honesty and track record before being allowed to operate? One of the very first posts (Mike Toogood, worth scrolling down to look for it) sums up the situation. Please, let's stick to the point.
Hey Unhappy,
Like I said, buy from Online Agent.
Online Agent Fee, £200
Best offer on the £500k property £450k (save £50k)
If it's your offer, that's great for you.
Online agent wont be bothered if vendir takes offer or not.
Everyone wins.
But cripes! I wouldn't sell through 'online' if I were you.
Small advice, take it or leave it (as online would say)
I'd do it for £2000. But I would have leave out the majority of the marketing? Infact I wouldnt be able to allocate you any staff time either so you would sort of be on your own. Come to think about I could only afford to stick a couple of pics on Rightmove for that fee and that wouldnt be fair to you. You maybe better with a internet only lister (wont call them agents). Feel free to let me know how you get on and we will speak in 6 months when you see the value in instructing an estate agent to sell your bigest asset.
Unhappy chappy....The minimum we have ever assepted for sales commission in the last 3 years was £4,000. and that was on a property worth £235,000. So my answer is emphatically NO.
Unhapph chappy.....you asked "I ask you the same question as i asked FBA if i asked you to market my 500K house for a fixed fee of £2000 what would you say?"
My answer is no, what would yours be? And no one selling a proeprty worth £500,000 would expect to pay that price for a good service.
Here We go again there are 5 properties in my street, with corporate and private agents these have all been on the market for twelve months+ they are over priced and have blurred pictures (I think they call it soft focus)
your point is irrelevent!
I ask you the same question as i asked FBA if i asked you to market my 500K house for a fixed fee of £2000 what would you say!
Roger, you are clearly an idiot and I'm sure that all agents on here are quite pleased that you will not be taking up their services.
There are five for sale boards in my area that are on the market with internet agents. They have all been on the market for 12 + months, the photos are crap, there is no kowledge of the local area including the school catchments (a massive selling point) and they are all over priced. That is why online agents are cheap, you get what you pay for.
Yes there are success stories but there are thousands more with estate agents. It makes me laugh when there are £500,000 properties with 4/5 blurred pictures and a dodgy description and the vendors expect to get the best price.
Let's not forget that we only get paid for the properties that we sell but we incur costs for all the properties that we list.
Therefore some of those fees earned from sales subsidise some of the losses made on instructions.
If everyone who listed had to pay a fee then I imagine that the percentage way of charging for our work would change to a flat rate.
But it would still have to be a sensible flat rate.
Regards,
The man with no name.
FBA - you may as well have stuck your fingers in your ear and sang la la la ....please explain where i am wrong, educate me? If i was a potential cutomer and asked you these questions about your fee structure would you give me the same answer of you are totally wrong .....
lets say i have a £500,000 house to sell and i said i will pay you £2000 to do it what would you say??
Would i trust an agent that said they would do it for £200....the answer is NO would i be prepared to pay £10K empahtically NO!
Unhappy,
you are totally wrong.
but.
Good news, if you buy from online agent, all the things you say may come true
Good luck.
PS, why not you buy Rogers dream pad?
Let's ask Roger (Southend) how he earns his 'hard earned money' shall we...?
Then we can make a sweeping generalisation about his work...
And, there is no point in 'thanking god' for finding this thread...better off thanking Google...
FBA- some opposing views to your points
Do their own viewings - I recommend that if you are selling a property you should be there anyway!
Do their own negotiating - What is there to negotiate if the buyer wants to buy the house and makes an offer, is it not your legal obligation to take exactly that offer and advise the vendor? Are you saying you do not do this?
Set their own value without local advice -
No the estate agent on a fixed price will still advise a price for the house - based on the exactly the same tools as a %agent will use - ie last sold prices of similar properties sold in the area (this is an internet search costs very little) In my experience this will oftne result in a quicker sale
Pop on internet and pray - No what you mean they will list it with Rightmove the same way as most other agents do....The cost for this is £500 per month per office
Endlessly wonder how viewings went (no feedback) - you answered your this earlier they will know how the viewing went because they will be there
And worst of all..
Should you not check for buyer finances prior to sale agreed?
Book mortgage valuation in BUT provide surveyor with no comps at all (that will go wrong), thats a downvaluation heading your way. - No that is avoiding an overvaluation to get the instruction
If you merely want a route to market, go for it, it works.
But if you want service? and a good price !! I suggest you try a local expert. - INoi f you want to pay more than you should use a % fee agent!
Roger,
go for your life, lets hope he is not a 14 year old, sitting in his bedroom, collecting £200 quids off peaple and then letting them:
Do their own viewings
Do their own negotiating
Set their own value without local advice
Pop on internet and pray
Endlessly wonder how viewings went (no feedback)
And worst of all..
Be no help after sale agreed, like:
Check buyer and chain for finances, mortgages surveys etc. Check progress of other links, advise on blockages to exchange and offer solutions.
Book mortgage valuation in BUT provide surveyor with no comps at all (that will go wrong), thats a downvaluation heading your way.
If you merely want a route to market, go for it, it works.
But if you want service? and a good price !! I suggest you try a local expert.
You could save £3,000 on fee and lose £10,000 in selling price.
It is the chance you take. Most prefer the security of knowing their local agent continues to trade on their reputation for getting it right.
Good luck with your sale.
Sorry online agent - my e-mail address is rogerseagrave1962@hotmail.co.uk
Just come across this site and read this thread with interest.
I have been thinking of selling my property but did not realise online estate agents existed. I have looked into it this morning off the back of this thread and will definetly consider using an online estate agent, rather than wasting my hard earned money on you money grabbers!
(Thank god I found this thread!)
If Online Agent does come back to this thread, please feel free to e-mail me and let me know your web address.
If price was the only driver in life everyone would have a Skoda
Let's remember that in any walk of life eventually we all have to back up statements with facts...
...but I agree with the comment about the costs...I couldn't run 2 offices in the sunny south-east on those figures...but I might be able to run 2 offices on those figures in the showery shetlands...
Getting back to the point of the article, maybe there shouldn't be licensing but shouldn't there be at least some controls of agents? HMO landlords/agents have to prove that their properties are looked after by 'fit and proper' persons. Shouldn't agents who deal with members of the public have to give evidence of this before they are allowed to open a business, in exactly the same way that HMO landlords and managing agents have to prove it to their local authorities?
Should all EA's on here disclose who they work for or own? I think not .....Online agent your points are as valid as any other posters, perhaps your costs are significantly less than some others here!
Let's not forget that all forums do tend to go off track from the topic of the original post...
The article is not forgotten but how many times can we say that the industry needs proper regulation, as with everything in life you will always find dodgy people and companies in every industry and these type of reports are not going to stop now!
Lol, all it takes is one comment from an internet "lister" and the article is forgotton.
Even £200 per property is cheap by online agency standards.
This is a fake post as far as i'm concerned or the guy is too embarrassed to post the web address.
Seriously, you have to be embarrassed to charge £200 per property, talk about selling yourself short! Your staff must be so undervalued in the eyes of the vendors and solicitors when they know they are paying £200, they must be spoken to like crap all day!
If your serious then you need to take a real look at your business model, any agent that bases their business on how low their fees are is just asking for trouble and as a consumer I would be wary of the level of service im gettting for my money .
Come on the funs over!
@ Online Agent
".............If you would like to verify that by coming to our office, then you are more than welcome... .........."
Well, where exactly is it?
Ohhhhhhhhh BORE OFF!
If you where that good you would be charging a dam site more than £200
@ Online Agent
You are clearly onto a winner. Any shrewd businessman in your position would be wishing to license/franchise this winning formula.... so why so shy about disclosing yourself. Could it be that you are talking gobbledegook?
@ James
You say there are lots of agents stealing client money. I doubt that is true, there are a few rouge outifts but i bet over 90% of letting agents wouldnt dream of doing it as It can result in a custodial sentence. Licensing will not stop a few rogue agents doing this. All licensing will achieve is another bureaucratic nightmare of form filling and membership fees, the last things agents need at the moment.
Let's not be shy...who is Online Agent and what's his website address? I want to take a look.
That is £320,000 a year - I am guessing there will be mortgage services, conveyancing and possibly lettings on top of this. (If I am right in who I think it is)
Looking at the site (that I think it is), some of those '10 staff' are lettings! But that being the case, if he has a half decent lettings portfolio, then he could be up to £500k a year. As an online estate agent, then I am guessing he doesn't go in the newspaper or do any leaflets and so his costs won't be anywhere near as high. It actually doesn't look so bad if these assumptions are correct...
Or maybe he is just talking b0ll0ck5.
Online agent...So lets work on the basis that you charge a flat fee of £200 to market a property, you say that you had 559 instructions for the first 6 months of the year so annually that's 1118 x £200 which is a turnover of £223,600.
Now with 10 members of staff(at a minimum of £20k per agent), rent for two offices, business rates, advertising, phone bills (for 10 people) and all other costs, you must be looking at overheads in excess of the turnover figure.
And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you manage to only pay £15k to your staff due to location, this still would equate to just about turnover.
Not that i'm knocking the business model but just trying to understand how it stacks up financially, it seems that unless you are paying your staff peanuts the numbers are just too tight!
Let's get the calculator out...he said he'd done 559 instructions to the end of June so let's assume that's a 6 month period
559 instructions in 6 months at £200 each = £111,800
249 sales in 6 months at £200 each = £49,800
Total = £161,600
I repeat...I couldn't run 2 offices and 10 staff for 6 months on those figures.
Firstly, we all know that online agent is not going to post his web address, it would be quite stupid of him to do so because he would just get slated. It is quite sensible of him not to do so.
Also, you are all quoting his sales figures. He will take £200 up front so it makes no difference how many he sells to his income. He gets £200 whether they sell or not. He could have 10,000 properties listed on his website with absolutely no sales, he's still making £200 per property. It does not take much initiative to work out which website he works for.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic but I don't understand 'Online Agent's' figures ?
259 sales to the end of June at £200 each = £49,800...so presumably that's the income in 6 months ?
or maybe...559 instructions in 6 months at £200 each = £111,800 income in 6 months ?
But there are 10 staff...and 2 offices?
I couldn't run 2 offices and 10 staff for 6 months on those figures.
A truly one stop shop Hothomes is there anything they don't do even including fraud.
Licensing needed - dead right but has to be 100% effective with the severest sanctions for not matching up - closure.
Online Agent - why is your web address a state secret? It took you longer to type your refusal to publish it than it would to have typed the address.
Brian or Brain(?!)
What makes you so bitter and twisted did you sell just before the last market recovery?
Online agent...no disrespect but even with the "9 instructions to book in for Wednesday & Thursday next week, 16 pending offers and 7 sets of sales letters to send out from deals we tied up in the last couple of days" that would only equate to £6,400.00, that sounds like way too much hard work for that amount of money.
Also you say that you did 249 sales for the first 6 months, that's 500per year and £100,000 in revenue, can you explain how with 10members of staff and allother overheads that this is a profit making company unless your paying very low wages?
The family that run this agency are an "interesting" bunch, try googling "Burridge Hot Homes". We accredited one of the family as a DEA, and suspended him a week later for lodging over 200 EPC's. I understand they now are involved with metroepc.com
Brain - a lot of my freinds are estate agents and likely to post on here, my other freinds are very unlikely to post here......im not sure who you are reffering to as muppets, please be more specific!
Fun Boy Agent.
Brilliant...you're asking me to tell you what my website is when you won't disclose who you are...classic!
I've told you who I am before and I end up spending hours discussing this issue with all of you on this forum and I haven't got the time to do that today...
I have 9 instructions to book in for Wednesday & Thursday next week, 16 pending offers that we are currently dealing with and 7 sets of sales letters to send out from deals we tied up in the last couple of days...(I dare say, we will be sending out another half dozen sales letters or so by the end of the day)
Have a good day fellow estate agents and enjoy the weekend!
Regrettably this sort of thing is the thin end of the wedge.
There will be lots of estate agents using client money to keep afloat right now. Borrow a bit this month and hope to pay it back the next.
I would welcome regular spot checks on agents, but until there is a licensing scheme that is properly policed this sort of thing will carry on
Just to get some posts back on track. Of all the letting agents that dissappear owing thousands to tenants and landlords, how many were with the DPS? I am in no way suggesting that all letting agents that use mydeposits or TDS are likely fraudsters, but if you take the temptation of a big deposit account away from a business that is perhaps struggling, there is no way that they can use the deposits for anything other than what they are supposed to be for. If the industry whats to get serious about protecting clients money, lets just have DPS.
Online Agent..
Please post your website details here in order that we can comment better
Erm...yes we do
Last 6 month conversion rate is 45%.
If you want the exact figures, that's 559 instructions and 249 sales agreed (That's up to the end of June)
Sure, not quite the 52%-55% that corporate agents aim for, but worth a punt for £200...
If you would like to verify that by coming to our office, then you are more than welcome...
(By the way, if we are only listers, then why do I have 10 staff sitting in the office making hundreds of viewings a month - I wouldn't need them if we didn't sell houses...)
Unhappy- EA is not a profession and as your muppet friends often point out and I am not one, just amazed at the rubbish you shower post.
Brian - that sort of comment only does your profession more harm than good. Online agent - a refreshing post although even i think £200 is a low fee!
Yeh, you don't actually sell any houses. Same as all online "estate agents". You are simply house listers, not estate agents.
We charge £200 to sell a house and have just celebrated our 5th birthday, we have 10 members of staff, we have 2 offices and are just about to open our 3rd in September
We have paid off our start up loan 3 years early, we have made a 15%-20% profit every year and we have grown every year (worst growth was 10% and best was 40%).
Anything wrong with our business jt?
sadly it will take many more closures before Grant Shapps and his DCLG (dept for for comatose and lazy government) wakes up and smells the coffee. Mates mortgages may be a soundbite that he dreamt up in the bath one morning, but realising that notwithstanding the over but ineffective regulation of the general publics's savings when they invest in property and rent it out they are completely unprotected. when will Grant and his mortgage mates realise that this is a problem now and can be simply fixed by compulsory licencing for agents through one of the variety of schemes that already exist. then rather than being remembered as another minister that did nothing during his term he might just be remembered for having done a little to stem the tide.
Quick post a house price story or the HPC idiots will have nuffin to do at skool.....
its not surprising any agent that does business and charges £200 has to have something wrong with it