One of the biggest chains, Spicerhaart, has pledged its support for Agents’ Mutual. The owned-by-agents site, as yet unnamed, is currently being built and is due to go live next year to challenge Rightmove and Zoopla.
Spicerhaart Group is seen as a powerful and key recruit to the venture. It has over 190 residential sales and lettings branches across the country encompassing six different brands, and makes much of the fact that it is independently, rather than corporately, owned and run.
Its recruitment to Agents’ Mutual closely follows a deal announced between the new portal and NFoPP.
Spicerhaart chief executive Paul Smith said: “We believe our support for Agents’ Mutual will be the tipping point for other leading independents to sign up to the new property portal.
“Agents’ Mutual is an essential response to the large property search sites which have favoured its corporate-owned agents over independents for years.
“Their influence on the industry and the prices they charge have become disproportionate to their real contribution to consumers and agents in the residential sales and lettings markets.
“Agents’ Mutual provides an opportunity for independent agents of all sizes to regain control of their online advertising costs and their property data, and to provide a better and more cost-effective service to their customers in future.
“We look forward to working with them to create the definitive UK property portal over the coming years.”
Smith, who together with his father built up his firm from just three branches in East Anglia in 1989, will now join the board of Agents’ Mutual.
Ian Springett, who is leading Agents’ Mutual, said: “We are delighted to have the backing of the Spicerhaart Group whose support further underlines the need for independent agents to act now and the viability of our market entry strategy to create a portal serving all agents across the country.”
Noel Flint of Knight Frank, who is a director of Agents’ Mutual, said: “The support of Spicerhaart as a Gold member reinforces our stated intent of creating a mutually-owned portal for all agents and a better service for the property-seeking public.
“We welcome Paul Smith on to the board and look forward to working with him to develop the portal we know the industry wants.”
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Comments
i have been using this website www.propertypropertyproperty.co.uk to advertise my properties they have been getting me some good leads and are only £30 per month. money well spent i made the money back for a year in one week of being on their.
@PeeBee @Wardy, we pay for a feed from www.dataexport.co.uk Is this the Mr RR you are talking about?
I have spoken to them since Wardy's first email and they told me that they don't send any data to our site until they receive it. However we will be requesting a full refresh of the data.
It would make it much easier and help us out a lot if you would let me know what your agency name is but, I assume that isn't going to happen.
All in all, the webs a messy danergous place, just stay safe and with RM who are at least legit. Full stop.
Scott, I'm not really into having these people having a look at the feed, I'm not sure they have permission to take it it the first place. All I can tell you is that although the site shows current stock and old, no subsequent changes to price or status are changed or updated, hence the problem with old stock showing at incorrect prices.
PeeBee, funny you should say that. The same exact listings on his site.
wardy - maybe F&S gets a data feed from Mr RR's site - THAT could be where all the inaccuracies are emanating from, as you have previously pointed out to him that they are there by the bucketful!
@Wardy - Scott,
While your attention is on this thread, Can I ask (again) where your data feed comes from?
I've noticed that you are listing my stock, in some case's the adverts are two years old.
I am concerned about property misdescription.
Whats the deal?
I have been in contact with dataexpress and he informs me that this shouldn't have happened as his datafeed is updated as soon as those who feed to him update their websites.
Dataexport have asked me to request the name of your agency again so they can take a look to see if there is a problem. Please email it to me at scott@findersandsellers.com
Wow, a lot of negative comments, but none on the ramifications of SpicerHaart joining the Agents' Mutual consortium.
It would be interesting to do an analysis of how much property (split by rental and sales) is 'controlled' by the member agents of this consortium. Not branches, property.
Then compare how much property will be on Rightmove (all), Agents' Mutual (the number calculated) and Zoopla (Rightmove's number less Agents' Mutual's number).
Then factor in Zoopla are about to IPO. Rightmove could, confidently, say that they have not only fought off strong competition, but grown in spite of it.
Zoopla's Public Offering Prospectus will have to clearly highlight that Agents' Mutual will take some of the biggest brands in London/South East agency away from Zoopla for a period of 5 years.
It's no wonder Zoopla are greasing their IPO valuation with all-out bus advertising. But what is more interesting is Zoopla marketing 'other' services to increase their revenue per agent.
Zoopla presented the Daily Mail General Trust with a graph that shows their revenue growth. They project £60m for 2013. Let's take the reasonable assumption that Zoopla loses money. And the wild assumption that Agents' Mutual will launch a competent product within the next 12 months, triggering pretty much all of London's largest agency brands to ditch Zoopla. What does Zoopla do next? Or more importantly, what does it do before that happens?
There just hasn't been any hard data in this debate. Let's dispense with the conjecture and get some numbers of what each portal will have in terms of stock and agent members.
@AceofSpades - "Scott, it would be refreshing to hear somebody else talking about your website for once. I can't recall that happening on EAT. "
Yes it would, I couldn't agree with you more. Sure would save me a job.
@Wardy -
"Scott,
While your attention is on this thread, Can I ask (again) where your data feed comes from?
I've noticed that you are listing my stock, in some case's the adverts are two years old.
I am concerned about property misdescription.
Whats the deal"
The data for about two thirds of the UK listings on our site comes from a datafeed provided by dataexpress.co.uk we pay for this feed and have been assured that it is up to date as it refreshes automatically every morning.
I am about to get in touch with dataexpress to find out how it is that we have listing that are out of date.
I don't know the name of your agency so if you want to let me know what it is you can always email me scott@findersandsellers.com
have any of these spineless agents trialled just being on 1 portal anyway?? why pay for 2/3 when you can be on 1??
Scott,
While your attention is on this thread, Can I ask (again) where your data feed comes from?
I've noticed that you are listing my stock, in some case's the adverts are two years old.
I am concerned about property misdescription.
Whats the deal?
Where have you been? Stage Hypnotist Kenny Craig aka Alex Chesterman will get all the members of AM to look into his eyes, not around his eyes, into his eyes. 3,2,1 they're under, when they wake they will sell him their businesses for a quid a piece 3,2,1 they are back in the room.
Scott, it would be refreshing to hear somebody else talking about your website for once. I can't recall that happening on EAT.
RM & Z will aleady be plotting their moves to blow AM out of the water. You can expect these ideas to remain top secret for now, with a full release when the AM launch is imminent.
For every £1 these Newcomers throw at a new portal, RM and Z have £20 to maintain their position.
Alex.....
If it's any consolation i'll be dropping rightmove.
"Scott...
Can I recommend that you invest more money in your website before spending any money on tv advertising.
Your advertising some properties in dollars mate!"
Ha! Yes and Australian Dollars, Thai Bhat, Euros, Egyptian pounds, Hong Kong dollars and many many more, we are are an international site with hundreds of thousands of properties advertised around the world, however the bulk of our listings are in the UK which are listed in sterling.
By the way for those of you who don't know, we are free and have been operating for just over a year, and please before you tell me free won't, can't and never will work, I spent quite a few months at the end of 2012 being told that on this very forum, and yet our site is going from strength to strength.
Interesting to see the intensity pick up from posters after every new announcement from AM as the reality dawns on them and they realise that at some point they will have to change their business plan.
No one ever liked change but change is a coming. I think we can now all see that
Scott...
Can I recommend that you invest more money in your website before spending any money on tv advertising.
Your advertising some properties in dollars mate!
@DaveJaVu
That will be us then.
All this comes back to one thing really, what the customers want.
To restrict agents would just be absurd as the customer will just go elsewhere, where they think THEIR money is being best spent.
If all agents were to remove all their properties off of Rightmove and Zoopla, would houses stop selling? I dont think so.
Thats the move everyone should consider. Then the public would turn and say, dont go one them sites, they have no properties.
Easier said than done, but if everyone is that miffed with them, then stand together, not under AM's banner, but as a collective force.
@Hound - I've no idea how much a primetime TV advertising campaign costs
We are in the middle of discussions with an advertising company in the UK who specialise in National TV campaigns, so I can tell you that if you want to run one 30 second advert every day on ITV, the channel with the most viewers, at the optimum prime time for a property buyers demographic, which would be somewhere in the middle of Emerdale, that 30 second ad will cost you £45,000 per month.
But one 30 second add will get you nowhere, you need to spread the ad evenly throughout the day on multiple channels for a minimum of 6 months and preferably a year.
http://www.journalism.co.uk/press-releases/finders-and-sellers-predicts-rightmove-and-zoopla-s-shares-will-tumble-as-their-own-property-portal-moves-up-the-ranks-/s66/a554701/
Did I already know about this OTHER new property portal or is this a new one?
I suppose we should all worry that the venerable agents who form the Agents Mutual consortium care so much about standards in the industry that they don't care who they jump into bed with!
Still, looking at it from their perspective, and regardless of the fact that Paul Smith's merry band will cut their throats if the have the chance, they need Spicerhaart's money!
I've no idea how much a primetime TV advertising campaign costs, did I see a figure of Zoopla spending 14m somewhere? but walk out into the street and ask the first person you meet to name a property website and see what they say, to win the hearts and minds of the public and steer them away from Rightmove will require a media campaign of colossal proportions.
I've seen a couple of comments where people suggest that as soon as agents start promoting it, the site will kick off. Isn't that the wrong way round, don't we pay advertisers to promote us? Not sure of the wisdom of telling a client that 'we'll list your property on a website you've never heard of'
@ CommonSense on 2013-11-08 11:25:14
Your reply shows that you are following the outdated marketing of recent years and have not explored what will happen when RM are so strong that THEY will run your business - not you! In my view non-corporate agents must band together with the agent owned portal AND multi-listing to remain basically independent.
Common Sense has it right. Surely the average potential vendor will want their home plastered on as many websites as possible. Are they actually going to be amused when they are told: "I'm sorry, we cannot put it on all major portals due to contractual agreements"?
They would surely want it on as many places as can be managed so achieve maximum coverage. Additionally surely most buyers are going to pick the well established websites first over AM any day of the week?
Ok i'll spell it out in laymans terms for those not quite clever enough to understand;
Applicant...We are looking to spend £300p/w for a one bed
Agent....Our one beds start at £400p/w
Applicant....Oh do you know where else we can find a property within that price range?
Agent...Your best place (currently) to look is rightmove or zoopla
And for those condoning split commission....We never have and we never will! It's too much hard work!
@commonsense - well said couldn't agree more.
@Neil - Surely we WANT the place for people to start looking for properties to fragment. Rightmove gets away with their price rises because they feel that everyone will look at their website and the agents just stay there.
Exactly.
the fact that you haven't got anything indicates that your cometition haven't either. Instead of telling them to try the competition, which is effectictly what you are saying how about. I will have a look through my local applicants to see if anyone is interested in instructing me, if not would youy be prepared to pay a finders fee of 1% plus 10% of anything I can haggle off the asking price any property I can find on your behalf. So much of my competitors stock is only on with them because they overvalue by 15-20% in order to win instructions from greedy vendors. I can think of a few properties that are on the market above your current price band but with a bit of discussion could be yours.
Neil's right.
Immediately AM have a gold tiering for the big agents and so I can see where this is going already - its all about money and power.
Not sure what - but something just doesn't smell right.
Surely we WANT the place for people to start looking for properties to fragment. Rightmove gets away with their price rises because they feel that everyone will look at their website and the agents just stay there. If you have more portals, of which, NONE of them have all the agents, people will have to look at all the portals.
We want to make people come and talk to us first about finding their new home, not just going on Rightmove and then phoning the agent who has the house that they may like.
If we just stick a for sale board up, a picture in our wind ow and a listing on Rightmove and expect to make money, then our business is doomed. If we act as proactive businesses and fragment some of our hard earned marketing spend, then we will be able to stay in business for years to come.
My guess - this whole 2 portal thing is just a massive stunt that will be dropped. All for publicity.
Worth risking credibility for pubicity?
Why is Trevor Mealham answering everyone's points ....I think he has far too much time on his hands commenting, and should be working on his own site ?
The propert portal market is a bizarre one with so many portals coming out of the woodwork.
Seller (S): Hi - so why should I list my house with you?
Agent (A): We'll be listing this on Rightmove and Agents Mutual next year
.
(S): Ah right, is that all? How are you going to be promoting it on the other website as well?
(A): No - we don't use other websites.
(S): Oh why not. I expect you to do your best to sell my house.
(A): You see we are leading an effort to build a portal which will compete with Rightmove and so we restrict our advertising to two portals as a result of the rule.
(S): So you reduce my marketing so that you can build a portal?
(A): Exactly. And later we expect our costs to come down.
(S): But what about selling my house now?
(A): Ah yes, we'll be listing on two websites for you.
(S): The agent next door said he'd be listing on all of the portals for the same price. Can you match him?
(A): Uh, no...but you need to see it from our point of view. As I said we're trying to build a website that will beat Rightmove...
@ Richard - yes I agree AM are mega under funded
@ Reality Check - Agree - I don't think RM or Z will worry. i think both will just wait for agents to start leaving. Don't forget as mentioned RM & Z have the corporates behind them so 4,500-5,000 agents that won't be leaving
@MCS - Correct - will have impact, but will simply deflate the stronghold, resulting in a more fragmented place to search. Or pots more £m's needed. RM and Z have. And as others say, would extra funding then have to come from Spicer and other big players, BUT at what cost. A change of membership in favour of others owning a bigger share. May not start that way but could end up that way to keep going
@Steve - your right - its easy for agents to whinge about increases. but how few pull away.
@Mark. Gosh - at year 4 they aim to match the spending. Wow's. An earlier comment said AM isnt launching till the end of 2014
@Paul H - Paul why direct punters to a portal if you havent got? You could pick up the phone and see if other agents would cut you a deal and take a share of their fee rather than they pay portal subscriptions. What's the hang up about agents doing deals together and paying sub fees in return for leads. Don't portals simply take a fee for generating leads??
What would make sense would be more agents drop some of the big portals. And pass over leads to other agents for a fee. Why not recycle otherwise dead leads and earn from them. That way you could just support the 2 big portals, still dropping one or the other and save the Agents Mutual subscription.
History and reapeating itself come to mind. If content comes of portals joe Public would simply have to go direct to agents. now thats a money saving and making idea
@Mark - Agree AM will be an expensive and speculative punt.
The best solution no one has mentioned and its right under your very noses and would get your fees up. Portals as you know them are not the answer.
@ PaulH on 2013-11-08 10:36:08
Regret having to say but it is STUPIDITY.
Pedant said....
"Paul H must be the most stupid agent on this earth by sending any unsatisfied enquiry to anywhere you are passing them to your competition."
If someone asks where else would you recommend that we look (as happens frequently) do you just say nothing or "don't know" or like a transparent and professional agent direct them to where else they can look?
It's common sense not stupidity.
I remember the days when Property Finder was about the only portal around and we never thought RM would be able to challenge them (if only we had joined as founder members!!).
Like I said earlier, AM may well be a bit of a speculative punt and possibly an expensive one if you have multiple offices like us but is worth looking at before being dismissed out of hand.
Whether RM see AM as a threat or not I do not know but they are listed now and could hardly be forecasting decreasing revenues in the coming years - the shareholders wouldn't stand for it.
was the restriction removed? Yes or no answer please. Yes it was.
Does it matter who is being targeted for the chop, yes it does a fall in subscribers to one or the other is only effective if AM Agents choose one otherwise the SD will raise fees to those that have chosen to stay, effectively declaring their hand that whichever portal is their preferred choice.
It is staggering how not businesslike some of you are. Paul H must be the most stupid agent on this earth by sending any unsatisfied enquiry to anywhere you are passing them to your competition.
Richard,
When people come in to my office and we have nothing for them I direct them to rightmove.
Going forward I will direct them to AM and not rightmove.
It is not all about marketing spend.
Talking of money.......the money that Agent's Mutual will need according to many posting on here.
What is the proactive and full backing and positive free exposure in every agent members office, in advertising and every other communication worth in money terms? May I suggest many millions. Time to accentuate the positive.
Rightmove has recently issued an interim management statement in which it points to a £101m profit forecast for 2013, confirms that it has 18,372 users/subscribers on board (up 2%) and is projecting rising profits for 2014 to £115m.
This equates to £5,497 PROFIT per subscriber for 2013.
They clearly do not see AM as a threat to their revenue stream, in fact it would appear that more agents are joining them.
Mark,
They are under funded to gain the SEO that rightmove and zoopla have. Can you really see zoopla or rightmove backing away.
Any attack they will penalise any agent who is part of it. If both threw £20m at hitting AM then AM would go plop.
Then as agents pull away the running cost alike Nflopps failed attempt would need funding. In walks Spicer to save the day and take the initial investments over. as by month 12 the failing beast will be losing agents.. In fact when some of the agents leave after 8-12 months, agents are like sheep more will follow and leave the sinking ship.
AM is poorly thought out and way under funded. IT WILL FAIL.
Richard
I understand ZPG are currently spending around £10m per year on advertising, AM's plan is to match that by year 4 - yes a slow burn and who knows what will happen to the online maket by then but that is why they are getting the agents to commit to 5 years as they are realistic about how long it will take before they are able to challenge.
As to being sold, Agents Mutual is just that - a Mutual so cannot be sold by anyone unless the vast majority of it's members (the agents that advertise on it) agree and in which case they would benefit from any sale.
Again, I repeat that I am no apologist or definate supporter of AM yet but they do have a well worked out plan which as agents who keep getting clobbered by RM's big price hikes every year is at least worth a look at. There must be something in it if over 10% of our industury has so far agreed to stump up £3,600 up front for what I see as something of a punt.
Get ready for the new and slightly cheaper 2 year contract from rm but you will still need to buy additional products.
Guy's whilst you all argue about the legality, freedom of choice etc about who to use alongside AM aren't you forgetting that year after year you all moan about the up and coming rate increase from RM yet you still pay because there was no other choice, now (or soon) you will have that choice and no matter how established RM is, if you strangle its life blood it will suffer, die or come back with cheaper offers but should you remove all promo lit from your windows and Ad's of these and get fully behind AM then you may not need RM again, happy days guys.
Mark,
Ian sold prime out before and thats now in the hands of the zoopla group. Is he doing this as a concience? Or to make heavy bucks again.
£5m - £10m its not enough. Here in central London every other bus reads zoopla and more taxis are branded as rightmove.
Try £40m and they might come 4th place. Spicer will only want in thinking it will fail and they'll buy it. Nflopp said they'll back it, and look what happened to Property Live. Who the hell are Nflopp to say its a good thing.
If Spicer don't buy it then LSL, Countrywide or Connells will and own a third to add to zoopla and prime and rightmove.
And whats this with end of next year. Technlogy will have moved on by the time AM get their site ourt there.
@Agents Uproar
Where do we sign. I like your honest approach. And only £1500 is that pcm in 10 years. Bargain.
Think I'll also be keeping rightmove and prime but dropping agentsmutual before it starts.
They probably haven't decided which portal to drop yet as the decision does not have to be made until the end of next year. It will be interesting to see how the big 2 portals react between now and then with those that have announced what they are going to do.
Having attended a couple of Agents Mutual presentations they do put a strong case forward as to why they have the clause of only allowing one other portal which, if it works, makes sense.
As to £3m not going anywhere, by my calculations that now makes about 1300 offices that have agreed to join AM as gold members which would give them nearly £5m before they start and they actually expect that to be nearer 2000 by January.
I'm not saying they will succeed and we haven't decided ourselves whether to put our offices on yet (will do so next week) but at least they should be applauded for looking at ways to break the current duopoly of portals,
AGENTS UPROAR .Co.UK
www.agentsuproar.co.com.net.info
is the latest agents revolt against the duoploy. Joe Public you should put your homes with us as were the latest contender who's fed up of you having to search on many websites.
Just like rightmove and zoopla were allow budget agents in so you can let your home next to our agents adverts at £0 fee. Were just rip of the 10 applicants for £150 per time who were keep turning away.
Our aim is to bring logic and giant icecreams to the public as our industry is totally screwed up by failing web attempts to sell and let your homes.
Back us as our founder is Lord Such Jnr so were honestly nuts about what we aim to promise and bring you.
Agents can advertise for free so long as they agree to pay us £1500 in 10 years.
I think there are 2 things to consider with AM's 'only listing with one other portal' policy.
Is it legal under competition law. Many would suggest that it is not.
and how are they going to police it. Will they be paying someone to trawl each portal looking for properties that are listed with them?
I agree with 'does anyone know', there is enough room for 3 portals, it would be better if there were more and all on some even standing. Competition drives competition which benefits EA's as well as the consumer.
The problem is, how to get that even playing field when RM, through agents have a 13/14 year headstart and very deep pockets and are on the forefront of the consumers mind.
It is not for one portal to challenge the Duopoly but for all agents to and to do that they need to re-educate their clients but a viable alternative is needed. If AM works with their policy, many lower cost and free portals will cease to exist, providing less choice.
AM will not be able to challenge RM, but they could seriously hurt Z. Obvious way of that is for AM clients to advertise on RM, taking huge stock piles away from Z. It is possible to conceive that AM could in short time become number 2 in the market, thus applying pressure to RM.
My question would be, still no competition so what will it really achieve. RM and Z started out as free sites and now look, will AM as a lower costing site be any different once they have control?
Does anyone know?
Does it matter what portal they are dropping, the key point here is that this new portal will be taking a big market share from day one and will be pushed by all the member agents.
The question should be: how long before rates are dropped by Zoopla and Rightmove. Judging by the amount of people signing up to agents mutual not very long.
Great. £3+m won't go anywhere so Im glad Spicer are on with Sav, KF and others so when funds run out they can bail it out for the bulk of the shares or agents face it dying like Property Live cock up.
So lets get ready for this new portal to be sold off before its created to large independents.
Zoopla and rightmove are mainly owned by LSL:, Countrywide and Connells. And aren't the Guild and Fine & Country backed by LSL?
So cant see the 5000 corporate offices coming in to the yet to launch and yet to fail Agents Mutual
We'll be leaving our 4 offices off
more adverts, excellent!
I think I'll be unsubscribing. Sick of adverts and negative articles.
How many adverts can you put on this website EAT?
As a point of fact, the restriction on advertising on other portals was not dropped by Primelocation when it was still an owned by agents portal. It was only dropped after its sale to the Daily Mail.
Which of the portals Spicerhaart are going to drop in favour of running with Agents Mutual?
I think if Press releases like this, designed to garner support for Agents Mutual and its dictatorial/ onerous membership clause, the standard first question ought to be who are you going to drop?
If there is orchestrated collusion on which of the duopoly are being targeted then I am sure the professional trade bodies ought to be taking a very keen interest in such an anti competition arrangement and certainly didn't ought to be so openly condoning a practice which has long been against NAEA rules.
Given Spicerhaart's footing in the South East dropping Primelocation, which is unquestionably the portal of choice for discerning buyers in the region, will give Mr Smith a right old dilemma.
Just as this stupid restriction was eventually dropped by Mr Springett first time round, good sense says someone ought to be suggesting there is room for 3 big portals until the target audience has been weaned off Primelocation.