More agents have flocked to join Rightmove this year.
In an interim management statement to the stock exchange yesterday, the site said that estate agency and lettings membership at the end of October stood at 15,192 – a 2.5% rise from the start of the year.
Rightmove said there has also been increased adoption of its advertising products, while revenue is also ahead of target thanks to membership fee increases.
Commenting on the outlook, Rightmove said: “The Board is confident of meeting expectations for the current year.
“The Board expects to achieve further organic growth in 2012 on the assumption that housing market conditions continue to be challenging but do not substantially worsen.”
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Comments
Oh, dear... looks like I've killed this debate stone dead, then! 8o(
Watching. I have kept out of your 'debate' with AceofSpades so far. I have an opinion on this matter - but, for once, I am being a good lad and not pushing it on anyone else, or shouting down any of the opinions being put forward. I know - it's a first - but not the first of many so don't get used to it! ;o)
HOWEVER... your last comments are a different matter, and I feel compelled to step in.
You state "That is what proves you know nothing of estate agency...
Buyers like RM, for sure, but they dont pay your fee."
Is that STRICTLY, 100% correct, Sir?
I would say that, in order for the vendor to pay your Sales Invoice, you need to 'sell' the property - to a BUYER. That the BUYER then makes an offer which is negotiated to a point where the vendor is happy to sell - and that the monies they receive are (hopefully) sufficient to allow them to do whatever they plan in order to maintain a roof over their heads; pay off all outstanding loans (hopefully) - and to pay for the professional services of their Agent, Solicitor/Conveyancer, et al.
So - in a loose sense at best looking at your argument; and in a TOTAL sense in Ace's, I am afraid that the buyer DOES, in fact, "pay" the Fee. They just hand the seller the money to then give to you...
Without sellers - you have no business.
Without buyers - you have no business.
You and Ace can continue to knock seven bells out of yourselves if you want. Remember, though, it is the Estate Agency profession that looks like it is divided and each camp needs to slag the other off, and not just two individuals who disagree on one point.
Come on, guys - shake and use your considerable combined skills to knock Hell out of the Agent Bashers instead!! ;o)
If you don't treat the buyer with the respect and attention of a 'client' - that's your problem and loss.
You really have got yourself worked up over this.
I know of an OFT 'complaint' from a year ago...nothing came of it. I will trust their judgement - not yours.
If your morals are THAT high and RM's actions that terrible, you are foolish to continue with them at all. Surely, you can cope without a 3rd party website?
I'm watching....
I know,
That is what proves you know nothing of estate agency.
Buyers like RM, for sure, but they dont pay your fee.
You cannot say why RM are not breaking the law.
I think you have got your knickers in a bit of a twist. You've stated a few facts that I've not actually quoted previously.
My point was purely that BUYERS can look online at any property they like, without having to speak to an agent, until they want to. The confidence in agents is so poor, that this is very welcoming to potential buyers. I was not referring to Vendors in the slightest.
AoS,
You say:
The Internet has done wonderful things for the property world. Not only is it easier than have to browse properties in your area from the comfort of your own home, but a massive benefit to the consumer is they do not NEED to even speak to an estate agent, until they deem it absolutely necessary. It's great for them.
You really are ignorant of how being an estate agent works, aren't you?
If you get an instruction, you scurry back to your office to list it, you cant wait to get it on Rightmove.
If you cant sell it, the V changes agent, and the new agent advertises it where? Oh Yeah! Rightmove..doh!
Do Rightmove still have the instruction? yes.
Do you? no.
Does Rightmove charge both you, and your competitor? yes.
You idiot!
Of course the public like Rightmove.
Rightmove like Rightmove too.
Rightmove will destroy you.
Take heed, count the days,
Enjoy your leased car, your rented office, your mortgage on your house. A house of cards that the other man will knock down
Enjoy.
Idiot
The Internet has done wonderful things for the property world. Not only is it easier than have to browse properties in your area from the comfort of your own home, but a massive benefit to the consumer is they do not NEED to even speak to an estate agent, until they deem it absolutely necessary. It's great for them.
For the way the buying and letting public want things to work, this is it (today, who knows for tomorrow). Information online, speak to an agent when THEY WANT to.
Your flag waving Rightmove campaign is not the general feeling of every agent. It is YOUR OPINION - apologies if mine does not match yours.
Besides, getting their pricing model to be investigated isn't going to solve the problem. Let's say OFT said watching is right, prices must be XXX amount and we see a reduction. The Rightmove machine continues, it gets more powerful with new members. Their position strengthens, the only thing that changes is their revenue...slightly.
For me the % a seller pays, the mixed treatment of clients and the "squeeze what we can from them" attitude is far more criminal than the monthly subscription fee on Rightmove.
You are still being a bit boring with your posts (it's not improved) and I know that both of our posts are boring everyone else. I am positive you will come back with the 'last word' but it is quite tiring - we're never, ever going to agree. Let's leave it at that.
PS Sorry for destroying the estate agency industry. A bigger boy told me to do it.
You moan like a greengrocer at Tesco coming to town, tough, provide a better service or die. Would that same greengrocer then do their weekly shop at Tesco?
Every agent that pays rightmove deserves what they get.
AoS,
Your ignorance is astounding, and you compound this as you choose to show every user of this site just how ignorant of business you are with your nonsensical posts.
You obviously have no comcept of where our industry is heading, or why, or how it is being done.
A couple of clues for you.
Go out of your office, walk up and down, look for butchers, greengrocers, fishmongers, etc. “Oh my!” You will say, “they have all gone, I never noticed that before, they were here 25 years ago”. Where did they go? Corporate retailers grew and grew and forced them all to close. It is happening to us, right now, but your blind ignorance cannot see it or calculate it.
Look again at your high street. What do you see?, take aways, charity shops and estate agents.
We are one of the last high street industries still dominated by independent traders. That is changing week by week, month by month. AND YOU DON’T GET IT.
YOUR attitude will not only sink yourself, but me and 1,000’s of estate agents like us. YOU are the reason why Rightmove WILL dominate unchallenged.
YOU are the reason because you have no intellegance. YOU.
YOUR “I’m alright Jack” attitude quite frankly stinks.
I believe we have an industry to protect, I cannot do it alone, my withdrwing from Rightmove would change nothing. There are laws to protect us, but if no-one is willing, able or prepared to speak up and get into some kind of action we will all see our industry swallowed by maybe 5 big Agency players and 2 portals.
Good onya mate.
I just think it’s a shame you chose estate agency as a career, yu would have been a better parking ticket enforcer with that ignorant attitude of yours.
This is so funny! Bit Frankenstein like, “rightmove” created by agents too stupid to see what they were doing, don’t complain about what you have created, then continue to feed and strengthen it!
The power is in your hands if you were only just better business people, but then again so few are, they stand out, the rest? perhaps just decent sales people but with no original ideas. If anyone creates something different you all copy like sheep. That’s why you can’t break rightmove and they know it. So stop wasting your time on here and sell more and pay up. Simple.
Slag away, the truth does hurt.
Watching, watching, watching.
Please, just leave Rightmove if it is that much of a problem. If you genuinely believe they are abusing their position and are too expensive, it is a very simple solution.
How has your OFT campaign gone so far? Have they come back to you?
Dezza,
It is not my intention to shoot you, or anyone else down. I simply see a situation develoing where Rightmove will abuse their market position in 2 ways.
1. Keep giving Indy's price rises, we have no alternative but to pay.
2. Develop products and data to 'take over' your/my business using our own collective apathy against us.
How to report businesses that breach competition law
The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) relies on complaints to help them promote healthy competition and protect the interests of consumers and businesses. If you suspect a competitor, supplier, customer or any other business is infringing the law, you should contact the OFT Enquiry Line on Tel 08457 22 44 99 or email them at enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk.
Does anyone have any suggestions then?
The public demand we advertise on rightmove so maybe that's where the change needs to happen? Maybe upload your properties to Zoopla or your own website 7 days before Rightmove and tell your applicants thats what you do... then they will look there first. It might get people out of the Knee Jerk reaction of looking on Rightmove only.
Maybe stop giving them free advertising in your window and throw away this QR code 'open' sign... i have. They arent being helpful, they just want there logo on all our doors.
Anyway, just ideas! Dont shoot me down 'Watching'.
But in reality its going to be very hard to make any change especially if only a few do it. The corporates arent going to do anything and they would use it against us when listing properties if we do de-list from rightmove.
Again, from my last post. I dont think £500 is that much for what we get but that will soon be a £1000 per month and so on!
PC,
No, it was not like this 30 years ago. There was no one newspaper group poised to take over the property selling industryIt could not be done then, with internet it can now.
There was no one newspaper with an almost total domination of every property advertised in the UK with an ability to set advertising rates as high as they wished because there simply were no credible alternatives.
You have never seen this before.
Rightmove are taking the propert industry over, and are using the stock of the people they will fleece to do it.
Keep watching.
Nothing changes. 30 years ago agents moaned about other agents, fees, clients and the main one in our area, the cost of Newspaper adverts. Now it’s rightmove, that all thats different.
A crow was sitting on a tree, doing nothing all day. A rabbit asked him, “Can I also sit like you and do nothing all day long?” The crow answered: – “Sure, why not.” So, the rabbit sat on the ground below the crow, and rested. A fox jumped on the rabbit and ate it.
Moral of the story : – To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be sitting very high up.
Dezza,
Again I point to the law, which says
"Neither Article 82 nor the Act contains a provision under which an abuse can be exempted because it produces benefits, it is still against the law".
AoS,
You assume too much.
You assume I know nothing of Corporate discounts. I am fully aware of their discounts.
You assume I do not advertise on other portals as well as Rightmove. I do.
Apathetic estate agents with the 'nothing can be done' attitude and 'its not that bad, ignore it attitude' will lead our entire 'cottage industry' as they like to call it to a swift conclusion in next to no time.
We are all being 'done' and the apathetic vote is like saying 'thank you'
Well done.
Seriously, you guys need to get a room. We all dont like paying for rightmove but what you gonna do about it!?
If we all decide not to use rightmove, they will just go direct to the customers, advertise on national TV then we will have a real problem... GAME OVER.
I've got quite alot of offices and dont get any discount... ive tried but they know they have you by the balls and need rightmove. I dont have the latest invoice here to check but i dont think its any more than £500 per office per month with products. I used to pay that weekly in the local press, I now pay £100 per week for local press so it all works out.
Nothing we can do about it unless Zoopla/Prime do well... then they will charge us too much!
"undisputedly dominate your market"
In YOUR eyes, they clearly do. Most agents on RM, ALSO use other portals. Perhaps you should too.
I hope your crusade with the OFT is going swimmingly well...don't forget your sleep still - it is important.
Yes, it is illegal if you undisputedly dominate your market.
Don't "need" to offer discounts? I'm sorry, I didn't realise you were on the RM board and had this inside knowledge?
I think you would fall off the edge if you actually knew the dicsounts corps get for their other services beyond Rightmove. For your health, don't research it.
As a supplier, it is simple, basic, pre-school business that if Joe Bloggs brings you XXX amount of business, they do not pay full price.
Whether RM want or need to offer a discount is their business and not yours.
Yeah, yeah "it's illegal" zzzzzzzz.
AoS,
My sleep is fine thank you. (Irrelevant however).
Your examples of 'buying power' are similar to those of Mr Bushell's cars, advertising and beans.
Coca Cola are big, yes but do not have over 70% of their market as suppliers and are in no position to FIX their prices no matter what their customers think or feel.
Vodafone do not have over 70% of their market. Any business small or large can negotiate with numerous phone suppliers for differing rates and obtain competitive discounts based on volume, there is choice.
Starbucks would have 1000's of cup suppliers to negotiate with.
None of the corporates in our industry have 'buying power' to bring Rightmove to the table and demand discounts. No corporates withdrawing from Rightmove would end Rightmove’s monopoly.
If a corporate was threatening to withdraw from Rightmove on a price////discount issue, where would they take their business as an alternative? And would the public follow?
My point is, Rightmove do not NEED to offer the corporates discounts, but they do. This is detrimental to your business AoS. This is unlawful.
You are a Rightmove fan. Why not leave it at that
The corporates bring hundreds and hundreds of accounts to Rightmove. It IS general business sense. If you have a buyer who is bringing you extra business (especially at the level of corporates), you give a discount. Simples.
Do you think the shop keeper at the newsagents pays the same per unit for a bottle of Coca Cola as Tesco do?
Do Vodafone give the same business rates to one man bands that they offer to big companies who have dozens of phones?
Do Starbucks pay the same price for their cups as your local coffee shop/cafe?
General, BASIC business. The more business you bring, the more buying power you have and you WILL get a discount.
Should the corps be paying the same as the indys? No. That would be bad business sense. it's happening every day in every industry.
I hope you got some sleep over the weekend!!!!
Tim M,
DDDuuurrrr!
How much, exactly, do YOU pay google monthly?
Don't be a silly billy. that is not an example of similar dominance to that which Rightmove enjoy in the UK property portal market
@ Watching
I have been trying to think of one other company in ANY other industry which enjoys such market power and can think of no company and no other industry.
DDDDuuuurrrrrrrrrrr Try Googling www.google.com
Donno might help !
Wardy,
I wholeheartedly agree with your entire post.
My contention is that RM abuses their position in the market, and by that I mean the property portal market.
They do this because they can; no-one is able to stop them.
The OFT can stop them from treating agents with contempt and imposing further price increases on us whilst our own market and incomes diminish.
Also the OFT could look hard at anti competitive pricing in respect of our corporate competition and their relationship with Rightmove.
I have been trying to think of one other company in ANY other industry which enjoys such market power and can think of no company and no other industry.
I am the first to admit Rightmove are fantastic, I simply believe they should be booked now, before it is too late, in respect of abusing this position.
I think we all know that the 'trickle' of development we see from them is leading to their TOTAL domination of the market with maybe a chosen few larger corporates as partners.
How would you feel if your Rightmove fees got to a point where you, I and a good many others could not justify subscription to them and had to withdraw, our corporate competitors still got their discounts and could stay in, and the public still demanded an agent who advertised on Rightmove?/
Your business would effectively be stolen from you by the company you helped build up with YOUR STOCK.
I agree.
I’m somewhere between the two on this debate. Of course Watching has a case for pointing out that rightmove has a monopoly. I can’t be the only one who would ditch them immediately if my vendors didn’t expect it along with the fact my competitors would have a field day. There are aspects to RM membership that are brilliant and also aspects that have me grinding my teeth in anger. (Anyone noticed that they are now heavily advertising for loyds TSB on the site?) Our stock, there to divert traffic to 3rd party advertisers, which is just wrong. Anyone who has dealt with RM’s customer service will also have experienced the ‘like it or lump it’ mentality of their staff.
Rightmove can’t be blamed, however for the fact there is no viable alternative. They have a monopoly because the others that have tried have been so bad at it. I defy anyone to say the likes of zoopla/prime etc have a better user experience than RM.
The public want/like rightmove and while that’s the case I’m going to have to stay with them.
Such vitriol from Estate Agent colleagues confounds me in many respects. I don't mind, it is not a campaign or my campaign. It is the way it is. I assume the RM fans are content to watch our traditional industry decline at the hands of the IT moguls.
Those 'smart' IT businessmen have one type of customer at present that is Estate Agents. By their own figures, they just about have that market sewn up. The poster who signed in as OFT mentioned the OFT consultation paper, in that, OFT calculate approximately 14,000 agencies nationwide, yet RM claim 15,192 subscribers. That is a monopoly. In the same consultation paper OFT calculated that over £2b (half) of Estate Agency income had been wiped out since 2007. Yet Rightmove turnover and profits go up. How is this? Simple. It is because while they claim to be in the 'property market' they are not, they are in the 'portal' market and are reasonably immune to fluctuations in the market that their customer base is exposed to.
EW, no, I don't think Tescos pay the same for beans as corner shops. I do believe Tescos do have 'buying' competition in the form of Sainsburys, Asda, Morrisons, Waitrose et-al. It is not ideal as there are few big players in the retail grocery sector and indeed buyers with market power are as dangerous as sellers with market power and similar competition laws exist to address this if such positions are blatantly being abused.
What I would charge a developer is irrelevant as I would be one of many tending for such business and so market forces would force a discount.
Again, 1 car or 200 cars as a buyer. There are many, many car dealers and car manufacturers, all would want the business and would offer discounts, plenty of competition there.
As for Archant, it is media, loads of competition and discounts galore to attract business.
Not one of these examples comes even remotely close to the Rightmove situation in the 'Property Portal' market.
To explain:
If Rightmove put their prices up early next year, which they will, our industry will have to pay up, as Rightmove are undisputed market leader in the property portal world, there is no alternative big supplier to switch to.
Now, when Rightmove offer those BIG discounts on subscription to the corporates ask yourself, do they need to? No, of course not. They are the 'one and only' portal market leader. If Rightmove offered the Corporates no discount at all, the 'big boys' would still want to subscribe as they know the value of Rightmove. So this smacks of price fixing giving a competitor an unfair advantage in the market with no suitable alternatives.
That is against the law.
I don’t mind if a few of my colleagues feel compelled to extol the virtues of RM and clearly do it here in an attempt to argue the 'toss' with me, that's fine. The vast majority of agents will know:
RM abuses their market position and favour non competitive discounting.
Unchecked RM will render traditional Estate Agency a thing of the past, and like sheep EA's will allow themselves to be corralled, not noticing or taking action until it is too late.
"Gloria - should you be drinking this early?"
On a Friday, are you for real?
I should have started at lunchtime.
The OFT conducted a market review of home buying last year. Their main conclusions relevant to this debate (easy enough to check it by downloading from their website).
1 Property portals have increased transparency in the home moving market
2 Hard to define the relevant market (by this they seem to be saying local newspaper property advertising and online websites whether portals or our own sites are all in the same market)
3 Not in the public interest to further investigate given the previous points
4 Worried that the portals (=Rightmove) prevent private sellers from reaching home buyers directly via portals
So WATCHING the industry will celebrate your success when Rightmove is forced by the OFT to have private sellers on its site and it blocks the DPG/Zoopla merger as reducing choice. Please campaign away to screw our industry and make Rightmove even more successful.
Dear Watching
Pee off and get on with some real work as you obviously have nothing better to do all day.
XXXXXX
Hawkeye
Jonnie,
I get where you are going with books, cars or music. This would lead an OFT investigation into asking the question is Rightmove a monopoly?
If the answer, following investigation is "yes" what then?
Are Rightmove setting their own prices or are they fairly influence by market forces, as are 'normal' companies?
In economic theory, perfect competition describes markets such that no participants are large enough to have the market power to set the price of a homogeneous product.
Market power is the ability of a firm to alter the market price of goods or services. In perfectly competitive markets, market participants have no market power. A firm with market power can raise prices without losing its customers to competitors. Market participants that have market power are therefore sometimes referred to as "price makers," while those without are sometimes called "price takers."
From OFT website: .....
"Can I make a complaint about a business to the OFT and what happens if I do?
Yes, you can report businesses that are not complying with consumer and competition legislation. We will log your information and then look at the complaints to decide on areas that might require us to monitor traders' activities or to investigate."
When you refer to their market share....you seem to forget the fact that Joe Bloggs Estate Agency, who list with Rightmove, also put their stock on many other portals as well. So it's not just one portal being chosen and this is a regular case with agents across the land.
You're not going to change this. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to use RM. It is up to you - a truly free choice. It is not an essential element that you are entitled to. It is a want, not a need. Calm down and enjoy the weekend. You lost your cool today.
@ Gloria Andaluza
Gloria - should you be drinking this early?
Thankyou for your answer. May I summaries your position? You are under pressure (no shame in that, all of us that are not liars are) and you want RM to lower their fees to take some of that pressure off.
Yet at any time you could leave and reduce your fees to zero. As such you clearly feel that the current fees are worth paying.
You could go to a competitor, yet clearly you feel they are not as good.
You can’t build a case around RM being good value and better than their competitors, that’s just a nonsense and will get nowhere with the OFT.
So while you clearly able to copy and paste some out of context sections from the OFT website I can’t help but feel that becoming a little obsessed about an issue that is going nowhere, I’m actually starting to feel sorry for you.
I’ll be the first to congratulate you if you do an Erin Brockovich and start up some class action lawsuit. But don’t go putting all your hopes into this, it would be so sad to see you crushed by your own hopes that will not materialise.
@Watching - Your case is interesting. However I am not sure I totally agree with you. I don't think European law prevents bulk discounts.
Do you think Tesco pays the same price for beans as our local corner shop?
Do you charge a developer with 30 flats to sell the same % as a vendor with one?
Buy one car from a garage and compare the cost with a company who buys, say, 200 mini's.
If I book 20 pages with Archant I get a better price than a one man band who books a single page.
I like Rightmove - they are innovative and forward thinking. Yes, they are expensive, but as with any business, you sell at what the market can stand and until they stop selling, their prices will continue to rise.
Watching,
I see…………………..I think I admire your passion but im not sure.
There are numerous portal about that regularly claim to be getting more hits that this site or another, in some areas the EA’s have set up on their own (CW Property??) and there is of course an agents own site.
However, RM have set up a business that promotes its self to the public, is recognised by everyone and has some snazzy widgets for agents in the back of it and costs less that a page or two a month in the local rag / a clumsy property magazine.
Plus – it’s the way it goes on the web fella, name a social networking site, a site for buying cars, a site for buying books, a site for downloading music, a site for buying houses – you see where this is going?
But, ive had a think about it and a DO admire your passion on this, I just fear that you might end up killing your self with a heart attack if you don’t accept that you can’t change it – its pretty cheap and if you use it right its good.
Obviously you could come off RM and ‘row your own boat’ you do have a choice
Jonnie
@Watching
Can't help watching you today can we? ;>)
Have a good weekend yo-all!
Jonnie,
Monopoly?
Not on a worldwide scale, and obviously industry specific (our industry).
Below was written in an article in 2008 by a journalist following the 'Homes Matter' complaint... 2008 Jonnie..
A recent report in the Telegraph reported that OFT fines are up 76-fold year-on-year and they are looking for high profile companies to make examples of. They have the power to fine up to 10% of turnover which in Rightmove’s case amounts to £5.6 million (turnover was £56.7 million in 2007). By preventing consumers finding out about cheaper property deals, it could be argued that Rightmove.co.uk are exploiting their “monopoly” position. Taking page impression figures from the Estate Agency News statistics, of the seven biggest UK portals, they have a 72% market share - well above the 25% used by the Competition Commission to define a monopoly. If it comes to it, it could be a long and potentially expensive battle. Representatives from Rightmove.co.uk and Homes Matter will sit down today (29th May 2008) to try and resolve the dispute".
Yes a monoply by OFT standards, not mine.
Oh Dear,
And old school RM kicking – not really the thing for a Friday but now we are here and all that…………….
So, Watching – are you suggesting that RM are a property portal version of Microsoft?
Jonnie
@Watching
Have you personally contacted the OFT?
If so, great, you've done what you think is right and can furnish us with the response.
If not, then I'm not sure what you are trying to do.
A cursory Google search seems to indicate both an individual agent and competitor have referred them to the OFT before and judging by the fact they are still here I can only assume they were doing nothing wrong.
Watching:-
You clearly have an excellent grasp of this subject.
What you say makes sense and, assuming what you say is correct then it would seem clear that if we make enough noise to the OFT they will, if nothing else, start to bring pressure to bear on RM who given their PLC status will then have to start to soften their stance.
Who knows maybe if it wobbles them as it should then they wont compound things by increasing prices further still this year - when if you believe the savills report we all likely to have an even tougher time ahead of us than we have behind us!
However, the easier it is for agents people to bring this matter to the attention to the OFT the more inclined we'll all be to do it. So rather than RM loathing agents all over the country doing the same thing or worse still not bothering to act at all can you produce a "draft" letter addressing the relevant points/laws correctly in order that individual agents can then copy and paste/adapt if they wish and send it to the OFT. If you could also provide details of where/who we should send it to that would be great.
Anna,
Again I point to the law, which says
"Neither Article 82 nor the Act contains a provision under which anabuse can be exempted because it produces benefits, it is still against the law".
AoS
1. I am not wasting your time, you are wasting your own.
2. Do you believe that if something unlawful is conducted for long enough (you say "a number of years") by any individual or company after a long enough period of time of not being challenged by the correct authority it becomes lawful? Surely not ! You are a professional and would know better than to sate this.
3. You say they ar audited. Ok, by whom? Yes they are audited, but his accounts for their money, not their conduct of their dominant market position.
4. You say there are many portals to chose from. I cant think of one that is as strong or dominant as Rightmove, can you? Who or what is the alternative that would be as good? Is there likely to be credible competition in the future?
5. As for me, and my wants etc. it is irrelevant again. A lot of what you say seems to be. You are clearly a Rightmove fan and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I agree they are the best, that is why they dominate. My point is, they abuse that dominance.
6.As for calling me names, like "stupid, Prat" etc. I question your professionalism. I would not expect to see that on a forum for professionals.
Do I have to be on RM ? - no
Is every agent on RM? - no
Am I on RM? - yes
Has the latest increase in fees incensed me? - oh yes
Am I going to leave RM - no
Why not? - because I need instructions!
Does it really make a difference? - oh yes
Is the total annual cost of RM more than the commission on two house sales? - not yet
Would I lose more than 2 instructions per year if I left RM? - almost certainly
Gloria
Conduct which amounts to the abuse of a dominant position is prohibited and the company or involved may be subject to a financial penalty and/or to directions appropriate to bring the infringement to an end.
In other words, at the very least stop increases in fees but better would be to reduce fees in line with the shrinkage of the ‘real’ market.
In the article Rightmove say “The Board expects to achieve further organic growth in 2012 on the assumption that housing market conditions continue to be challenging but do not substantially worsen.”
So they agree at the outset their income is linked to the property market, yet their own market is in fact property portal, which they dominate without question. The site said that estate agency and lettings membership at the end of October stood at 15,192 – a 2.5% rise from the start of the year. They even promote to potential investors how dominant they are.
The OFT may impose a financial penalty of up to 10 per cent of the turnover of a company for an infringement of Article 82 and/or the Chapter II prohibition. When setting the amount of any penalty, the OFT must have regard to its Guidance as to the appropriate amount of a penalty (OFT423). Further details on penalties and directions (and other consequences of an infringement of Article 82 and/or the Chapter II prohibition) are available in the competition law guideline Enforcement (OFT407).
Entry into the world of property portals would now be difficult for any new competitor portal to catch up. Barriers to entry are high. The most important barriers are economies of scale, expensive and complex technology, and strategic actions by Rightmove which are designed to discourage or destroy nascent firms.
Rightmove are price setters rather than price takers. They can set prices with impunity and total disregard of their supposed competition or their customers. Rightmove said “revenue is also ahead of target thanks to membership fee increases” in the article above. No-one can stop them. If they fancy 10% price increases early next year you will have no alternative but to pay up.
Rightmove have perfect knowledge of their own cost and demand functions, Estate Agents have only imperfect knowledge as to the price, cost and product quality of Rightmove.
I ask you again, do you pay more to Rightmove than your Corporate competitor? (yes)
Send OFT an e-mail, if enough Estate Agents do this, OFT may look into it.
We're not even at the end of the day and you have gone back on yourself.
Earlier you were saying it is unlawful for a company to change different prices for the same product or service to different clients.
Are you stupid? Rightmove have been conducting business in this manner for a number of years. Everything they do is audited. Do you think OFT have never looked into them and then you are the first person to have this 'thought' ( I use that word loosely)?
There are many, many portals out there. Rightmove are the best. You can use whichever one you like, if any. A portal is not a compulsory or essential element to EA. Sounds like you sit and wait for the phone to ring from the portal leads and you really, REALLY need it.
You clearly want the benefits of RM, but for a price that suits your pocket. Get a life and stop wasting people's time. If people WANT to make a complaint about something, they will do and certainly will have already done so. This is getting embarrassing now.
Watching, what do you want, what is your end game here?
Competition law guidelines exist and apply, even to Rightmove.
The OFT is issuing a series of competition law guidelines. New guidance may be published and the existing guidance revised from time to time.
For an up-todate list of guidance booklets check the OFT website at www.oft.gov.uk
All guidance booklets can be ordered or downloaded from the OFT website at
www.oft.gov.uk
Or you can request them by:
phone 0800 389 3158
fax 0870 60 70 321
email oft@ecgroup.uk.com
post EC Group, PO Box 366, Hayes UB3 1XB
Abusive conduct of a dominant position in a market generally falls into one of two categories, in Rightmoves case it is "conduct which exploits customers or suppliers with excessively high prices".
In the case of your irrelevant "car" synopsis there are 1,000's of options between your Ferrari and Vauxhall idea. If the options were simply, Ferrari Vs walk or bus you would have a point as all "get you there", but no one car manufacturer has a 'dominant' position on the market thus forcing you to walk.
You are a Rightmove fan, I can tell, but it does not detract from the point that they are breaking the law by abusing their market position.
My pricing would come into question if I had a market dominating position, but I do not, so it is also irrelevant.
And I am not reduced to name calling as you are, simply because I cannot agree with you.
Once more: Righmove are breaking the law
Gloria Andaluza: "If you don’t think RM is good value for money, don’t subscribe. Could it be any simpler?"
I am delighted to advise you that, for the first (and probably only...) time on this site I fully agree with every word you say.
I have marked the day on the calendar - and suggest you do too! ;o)
Watching: I may not necessarily agree with your comments, and if I feel so then I will post my own opinion, in my own words - and not rely on someone else to do it for me in such an offensive manner.
'Peebee', whoever you are, I sincerely hope that such juvenile drivel does not mar this site again - undre that name or any other.
Keep your immature and distressing to others namecalling for the playground where you obviously perfected it.
There is plenty of competition. All portals do the same thing in a nutshell...Rightmove just do it that much better.
Your silence on my questions suggests that you don't offer the same pricing/terms to all of your customers.
You are a CTRL + C, CTRL + V Wizard, I will give you that. But you're also a tight fisted git - boring me (and many others I suspect) now.
Plenty of car options out there, it is not my fault that I can't afford a Ferrari and have a Vauxhall. I know, I will call the OFT. They'll sort me out. Prat.
Neither Article 82 nor the Act contains a provision under which anabuse can be exempted because it produces benefits, it is still against the law.
AoS, switch to where, or use which portal instead?
Existing competition refers to competition from, in this case, portals already in the relevant market, to whom consumers might switch if the alleged dominant company, in this case Rightmove, sustained prices above competitive levels. The market shares of competitors in the relevant market are one measure of the competitive constraint from existing competitors but not the only measure.
There are no market share thresholds for defining dominance under Article 82 or the Chapter ll prohibition. Rightmoves market share is an important factor in assessing dominance but does not, on its own, determine whether Rightmove is dominant. For example, it is also necessary to consider the position of other portals
operating in the same market and how market shares have changed over time. Rightmove will be considered to be dominant if its competitors enjoy relatively weak positions or if it has enjoyed a high and stable market share.
Market power can be thought of as the ability profitably to sustain prices above competitive levels.
1. Are you paying more to Rightmove than the corporates do?
2. Are you paying less to copetitor portals for 'on the face of it' similar services, only to find they have less market share?
3. Do you suffer price increases from Rightmove despite 'real' market (property market) fluctuations up or down? Are Rightmove's price increases imposed upon you with a disregard for competition purely because in real terms Rightmove have no competition?
If so .... Righmove are breaking the law.
Watching- Wow, I think you could be in for an award. I have just called the OFT and they have never heard of RM or ever explored their business conduct.
They have asked me to get you to call them so you can give them all the details they need. Like I say, they've never looked at Rightmove in the past, so they eagerly await your call.
Watching, I can then safely assume that all of your clients are paying the same commission and are tied in to the same contract length?
There are plenty of portals available. Many agents get by without Rightmove at all. Take responsibility for your own actions and put the flag and whistle away. I know the exact kind of child you were in the playground, it's showing now.
Gloria and Ray are absolutely right.
I see watching is doing his best Arnold J Rimmer Impression, busy quoting spacecore directives.
I’m sure RM is quaking in their boots now that Watching has appointed himself a legal expert and decided that they owe him free membership. He is as bad as the HPC band that want free houses.
The European Court has defined a dominant market position as: '...a position of economic strength enjoyed by an undertaking which enables it to prevent effective competition being maintained on the relevant market by affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of its competitors, customers and ultimately of its consumers.'
I say again, RM is breaking the law.
Rightmove...
Either join, stay, leave or join/set up another site - the choice is available.
Whatever else is suggested for RM will have an absolutely zero effect on them for the foreseeable future.
Watching, If you don’t think RM is good value for money, don’t subscribe. Could it be any simpler?
AoS,
It is not my opinion (or yours), it is the law.
Conduct which amounts to the abuse of a dominant position is
prohibited and the undertaking or undertakings involved may be
subject to a financial penalty and/or to directions appropriate to bring the infringement to an end.
RM are undoubted market leader, what is the competitive alternative? There is none at present. So they abuse their position with price hikes for you and me, and low fees for our main competitors. This is against the law.
One more time, just for you AoS,
It is not my opinion, it is against the law.
@Watching
Excellent post/point ( sadly in the minority )
Whistleblowers/Rumours that certain firms who were formerly shareholders pay less than a third of what the rest of us do should therefore be raised with the OFT en masse by the rest of us.
For once can we all stop whinging about RM and actually try and DO something about it ?!
@watching's given us the email address so lets use it.
When Rightmove invite me to become a non exec Board director I'll find all this out for you, follow me on Twitter in case I hear anything from a little bird. Have a good weekend, regards from 1/15,192
2011-11-11 10:03:31 -
The Estate Agency industry is riddled with your own points, itself.
How many clients do you have signed up to different fees and different contract lengths?
Glass houses and all that.
Watching - Don't be a drama queen.
"charges excessively high prices or charges different prices to different customers" - Sorry, are you talking about Rightmove or Estate Agency here? I'd have to presume the latter.
...IF prices were excessively high, surely there would be a reduction in members, NOT an increase?!
Just leave RM if you don't want to pay for it. I'd say that's better than posting rubbish online with your flag and whistle at hand.
Both Article 82 and the Chapter II prohibition provide, in similar terms, that conduct may constitute an abuse if it consists of applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with
other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive
disadvantage.
Are you paying more for Rightmove services than LSL, Haart, Connels, etc.
If so, it is against the law. You should be reporting them.
If enough complaints are received, action will result.
@FWIW
If you believe there is no possible 'flowering' of the figures then that's your privilege.
However, I would say Rightmove are concerned about the rise of Zoopla and the threat of a combined Zoopla/Digital Media Group leviathan.
Motive and opportunity have presented themselves here.
RM are allowing landlords with large & medium size portfolios to advertise their own stock directly.
There simply isn't 15,192 true agents in the UK.
A business may have a dominant position in a market if it can behave independently of competitive pressures, such as rival businesses, in that market. Chapter II of the Competition Act 1998 and Article 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union prohibits abusing this dominant position. A business could be seen to be doing this if it charges excessively high prices or charges different prices to different customers where there is no difference in what is being supplied or makes a contract conditional on factors that have nothing to do with the subject of the contract.
In general, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) decides if a business is abusing its position by considering the likely effect of their conduct, rather than the specific form of the conduct.
The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) relies on complaints to help them promote healthy competition and protect the interests of consumers and businesses. If you suspect a competitor, supplier, customer or any other business is infringing the law, you should contact the OFT Enquiry Line on Tel 08457 22 44 99 or email them at enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk.
@Grey Agent
Unless I'm mistaken they are a PLC and thus their accounts are both audited and published, if you are bored you could always go and verify the figures yourself.
Is anyone old enough to remember that old saying "There are lies, damn lies, then there's STATISTICS"?
How are these figures verified? Anyone up for a bit of auditing? The queue begins here!!
Come on guys, this is business. You charge what your service is worth. If the numbers of RM members is increasing, the pricing structure is about right. Perhaps a little increase is due in the next 3 - 6 months though.
Unless, you have lined up an Xmas present or reduction in fees for your own clients, then I take it back....
So agents are falling over themselves to sign up whilst reserving the right to moan about RM taking advantage.
That's the same kind of schizophrenia as over-valuing houses whilst whining about a lack of transactions.
@Virgil. There's more chance of Miles being abducted by the Mysterons than that!
FAB
Good news maybe RM will give all its loyal subscribers a reduction in fees. or perhaps a nice christmas present...........would anyone else like this??