The property portals and Government are continuing to put the onus fairly and squarely on agents when it comes to complying with the new rules on Energy Performance Certificates.
But there appears to be no satisfactory answer as to why the big property portals seem to have been let entirely off the hook, whereas agents’ own websites have not. A court case, possibly challenging an estate agent’s website that, like the portals, claims to be exempt on the grounds that it carries adverts and not details, would normally look inevitable.
Whether the Government has the appetite for such a fight is more questionable, amid briefings that housing minister Grant Shapps and CLG secretary Eric Pickles have become thoroughly disenchanted with the Green Deal.
However, there remains lack of clarity for agents, who have been told to obey the law – whatever that is.
Bushells’ boss Eric Walker wrote asking for clarification to the Government department for Communities and Local Government, wondering why agents’ own sites must carry EPC information but property portals do not have to.
He wrote: “I would be grateful if you could clarify why property portals (Rightmove, Zoopla, etc) which contain all the elements which define written particulars simply claim they are advertisements, whilst our own website must comply with the new regulations.
“I see no exemption in the regulations and seek confirmation as to why the two means of providing electronic particulars differ.
“I appreciate that a law needs to be tested in court. However, as the Government wrote the law, perhaps you could clarify what was intended without prejudice to the courts’ later position and what guidance has been given to Trading Standards in this respect.”
Walker received this reply: “Where a property or letting agent intends to make more detailed information about a building available, either on their own website or another property portal, and the information provided meets the definition of written particulars, then an EPC must be provided with those details.
“The onus will be on property and letting agents to ensure that an EPC is provided with those details, not the website designer or the company who operates the property portal.”
The CLG guidance does appear perfectly clear both in the spirit and intention, and in the detail. In its Q & A guidance to agents, on page 8, it says the requirement to attach the front page of an EPC to written particulars applies to online.
It also says that the intention is to ‘ensure that prospective buyers and tenants see the key recommendations attached to the EPC’.
CLG has meanwhile also denied rumours that it is due to have a meeting imminently with Rightmove to discuss the issue, which has arisen because the portals have decided that the property information they carry on their sites is ‘advertising’ and not ‘property particulars’, and that furthermore they cannot control the content.
Thus the portals are advising agents that there is no need to attach EPC information on listings such as Rightmove’s and Zoopla’s, although that may not apply to their own sites.
A number of agents have challenged this, telling EAT that the law makes it clear that what the portals carry are indeed ‘written particulars’, and that it is a nonsense to say that, as publishers, they are not responsible for site content.
Walker said that Rightmove and the other portals were really trying to shift the responsibility on to agents. He said the disclaimers were meaningless and that their claims to have no control over the content of their own sites were just a delaying tactic.
He said that if it was agreed that agents carried the can for ensuring their property particular complies, then Rightmove would ‘become a portal not just to advertise properties but a portal to allow Trading Standards to police the new regulations’.
He added: “That would make it a cyber ‘grass’, leaving no hiding places for member agents, and reducing the workload of the authorities.”
Yesterday, a CLG spokesman said: “As you know, we have issued guidance (rather than any ‘ruling’) on EPCs. There is no meeting currently planned with Rightmove on EPCs.
“If property portals are displaying written particulars – as defined in our Regulations (irrespective of what they may call them) – then the EPC needs to be attached.
“This is the responsibility of the person acting on behalf of the seller or landlord – who provide the property portal with the written particular information, not the property portal themselves. Rightmove were sent our guidance and have previously said that they would facilitate the attaching of the EPC for those property agents who wish to comply with the legislation.”
Rightmove was also invited to comment.
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Comments
Can anyone confirm that their agency software is passing EPC's to Rightmove correctly and if so is it a pdf file or weblink? I was thinking in particular of Vebra, Solex, and other GMG software users in particular.
We are Encore users (original not Encore Live) and have chosen to upload EPC's as pdf files. We are uploading pdf's to Coresystems (Guardian Media Group) and they display on homesonview.co.uk fine.
However they are not being passed on in the upload from Core (GMG) onto Rightmove....
I can add a new pdf EPC manually onto Rightmove no problem using Rightmove Plus ....
I wasnt sure if this is just an Encore problem as GMG helpdesk are not exactly forthcoming.... just trying to undderstand the scope of the problem
Thanks
Mark
It is well worth actually reading the 2007 Energy Performance of Buildings Regulations, which have now been amended by these new definitions, before asserting that Rightmove have 'got it wrong'.
The 2007 Regulations make it crystal clear that the EPC information must be provided with the property particulars "....to persons who may be interested in buying or renting the building...".
An annoymous website user, who is looking at property advertisements on-line without disclosing their name, their contact details or any other relevant information to the agent cannot possibly be reasonably considered to fall into that 'interested' classification whilst they are browsing.
When do they become 'interested'? Surely it is when they are sufficiently motivated to click the 'REQUEST DETAILS' button on the property advertisement to provide their details to the agent and request the property particulars.
Whatever advice RM have given all the kerfuffle about EPCs is a storm in a tea cup (which is easily resolved if Eric and his cronies at CLG are willing).
1) Change the definition of written particulars (which is only in place in an attempt to force unwanted EPC availability earlier in the process - even though no-one actually wants it)
2) Revise the description of the potential buyer i.e. anyone who requests details
Simple.
Result
1) The UK still meets the requirements of the EU Directive
2) The EPC is produced at the point it is actually required/of interest i.e. to the actual purchaser towards the end of the process.
3) The take up of EPCs will barely decrease, they will just mainly be produced for those properties actually sold - and who is interested in the energy performance of an unsold property that no-one wants? The energy performance of an unsold building is completely irrelevant.
It's easy. All it needs is the application of some practical, common sense
What about it Eric?
So many miss the point. Its not about complying with the Law - that is not open for debate and all decent agents will just get on with it and move on.
The issue is that RM gave out wrong advice despite making millions from agents and in so doing, may have put some agents in a compromising position.
Many small agents would have felt that they could rely on this advice. Even now, Rightmove have not set the record straight and this is frankly disgraceful.
On a side note, I sold a house yesterday.
Well siad Peterboro agent! What a bunch of dim wits and moaners 90% of agents are! Thats why the 10% so stand out from the rubbish that is out there, no wonder the HPC idiots poke at them so much, but its too easy, god I agree with the HPC nutters arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Well said PbroAgent
and let that be the end of it!
Sheesh, with all this moaning you lot sound worse than my kids.
The legislation is simple. You have to include the first page of the EPC with any written particulars you give/post/email out. Rightmove are clearly wrong with their advice, if you have much more than a photo on a portal or website, you need to add the first page of the EPC.
Most up to date agency software will allow you to add EPCs without any problems, we use Dezrez and it has been quite simple to upload the EPCs which we have hosted elsewhere onto their system, which then loads it onto the portals automatically.
Can't seperate the first page of the EPC? So what? Post it all, who gives a stuff?
Can't redact the address? If your competitors are really that bothered about touting your stock, don't you think that they would have already mystery shopped you and be on your mailing lists and probably know all your addresses already?
It's the law, it's a faff, it's a load of extra work, but it really isn't that complicated and really isn't worth getting in this much of a bother about.
Not an agent, and not wallowing in ignorance as your post. Far, far from it mate. Have you got the white socks on still?
@Puzzled
" Shut up, do it and just get on selling houses like your competitors are who are not posting to try to be clever!"
Like our competitors - most are ignoring it as they have relied upon wrong advice from Rightmove et al you muppet.
This article has actually done everyone a great service. You wallow in ignorance mate
Why did you post here then Puzzled?
All the time you waste on here, posting against what is law, is wasted, like the HPC crew you won't change anything. Shut up, do it and just get on selling houses like your competitors are who are not posting to try to be clever! It will change nothing, do you thing the CLG reading or caring?
From earlier
You MUST display the first page of the EPC.
The first page of the EPC shows the FULL postal address.
The CLG confimed that this CANNOT be redacted and MUST be displayed.
Where have you been??
Redacted means edited, It seems the great and good from NFOPP, RICS etc didn't request that the full address could be omitted from Page 1
Sorry I got my acronym's mixed up, whats an EPC?
I have been looking at some of the competition and it seems some of the bigger agents are adding the first page of the EPC but have found a way to delete the address.
I wonder whether this will catch on....
@ new-man
No - there is no requirement for colour
Interesting that The Letting Centres latest update says you DONT have to attach an EPC to a portal.....
I love the post from a company which can 'extract' the (address bearing) front page of the EPC for you free of charge.
Hmmm what would I do with a list of addresses for properties which have just come on to the market....
Do I have to attach a colour copy?
The portals provide the platfrom for marketing. It is up to the agent to comply with any/all legislation.
It's the same as all these sites/software where you can illegally download music. The provider offers a file sharing platform only. It is the users who create a problem in the way they choose to use it.
Hawkeye - "Why should we give a rats about EPC's when to provide them is against our human right of choice in spending money without due cause."
The human rights comment was pathetic. So you are saying that any unwilling expenditure that the human race encounters is against their human rights...take a time out please ;)
EA's dont think the EPC's are of any use, Jo Public don't give a stuff about them so when the public start to ask for them that's the time to hand over a copy. I have one on each file and ask if anyone wants a copy and nobody has said yes yet.
When will our elected government do as we ask instead of causing greif and agravation in an area nobody cares about.
Why should we give a rats about EPC's when to provide them is against our human right of choice in spending money without due cause.
Or simply ignore on the basis Trading Standards havent started policing the 2008 regs yet and haven'y any guidance on the new ones.
I loved EW's question: "I appreciate that a law needs to be tested in court. However, as the Government wrote the law, perhaps you could clarify what was intended without prejudice to the courts’ later position and what guidance has been given to Trading Standards in this respect.”
Note there was no response. They must have had an intention as to what they meant to say and instead refer it to the Judges to explain it at a later date!!! Madness.
@LegalEagle
Ah....yep so, basically upload the first page of the EPC and move on!
Guys - nice idea BUT the regs state:
In relation to a building to be rented out, the duties apply to a written description of the property which includes at least TWO of the following:
• a photograph of the building or any room in the building,
• a floor plan of the building,
• the size of the rooms in the building,
• the measured area of the building, or
• the proposed rent
Please understand that all this crap has been promoted and demanded by the Liberals in the coalition.
EPC front pages, Green Deal, conservatory tax etc are all the result of the bleeding-heart Guardian reading wet farts in the Liberal party.
Please note, I'm not advocating that anyone votes for the Tories or Labour - they're tossers too.
On a separate note, what about those agents who embed their own rightmove agent specific search into their own website as the search facility? Are they just advertising?
@ @ ray evans
Spot on - Stop including your full details on the property portals including your own websites and put in the adverts on the web, "for full details you will need to contact our office"
For vendors complaining; you can say it is designed to have people call us and if a buyer is serious they will do so to find out more about your house. less can be better!
Buyers complaining - well they will have to phone you to complain so job done there...(but how many will actually be bothered) Hi Mr Jones, would you like the details, no problems, let me arrange a viewing for you at the same time!
The result could mean more calls to agents which can only be a good thing.
So two options, straight forward enough, dont include your full details on the web or include page one of the epc as the law states and lets move on!
@Plank
Rightmove adapting is fine and agreed. Giving WRONG advice is a different issue.
Agents adapt - but need to know what it is they are adapting to.
EW was not demanding anything just clarifying whether RM's advice was right or wrong as many agents do not want to post the full address of a property on a website and grasped RM's advice that is was not required as welcome news placing them at the mercy of fines.
3 points.
1) Can tell you what guidance has been given to trading standards. I've spoken to them, the answer is nothing, nowt, diddly squat, a big fat zero.
2) Portals. Look at the Guidance. There is a difference between property listings and full particulars.
The DCLG for once have been quite clear what constitutes the latter.
The search results page is a listing. Like an advert you are putting general information in front of people.
When you click for more info (ie the 'written particulars') that's where the EPC comes into play. We've cracked, it isn't difficult.
3) Instead of worrying about touting, how about worrying about your vulnerable clients.
Low life sitting in front of a screen, scribbling down address of retirement properties 'Sorry to trouble you but I wanted to view for my mum and the agent hasn't rung back. I was just passing.....'
I picked up on this last point the day the guidance was issued and immediately emailed Eric Pickles expressing extreme concern. The response? Refer to 1 above.
Eric Pickles...there's the E & P, anyone think of the C? Answers on a postcard please....
You have missed the point of the question, Who says Agents have to electronically publish the full particulars containing the EPC for the whole world to enjoy?
If you don't want to publish the full address, do not put the full particulars in the public domain, keep them back for printed or email disribution to registered applicants.
I appreciate giving a service to applicants might be seen as a return to the dark ages of Agency but ultimately the choice is yours.
Instead of bitching about the portals stance, take advantage of it and declare your online details as adverts
@Rhino
You are a bit slow to catch on aren't you (so are your mates)
Let the portals "advertise" your properties without the Full address bearing EPC.
Similarly "Advertise" on your own Agency site the properties you have available for sale, nice brief not full detailed info that any rogue agent or crook can get their hands on and produce full particulars or details that are only available in a printed format from your office.
My point was that Eric is almost demanding that the Agent delegates everything to a self service system which would necessarily demand him to comply with the legislation he his so up in arms about.
The reason Rightmove do so well is they are smart enough to adapt to change as it happens, The market has changed and the Portals are becoming the effective cause of sale with Agents increasingly becoming hapless lemmings all jumping into the mouth of the monster they are desperate to fight.
Effectively most UK Agents are creating an American Style Real Estate System be demoting their role to that of a lister or viewings negotiator With Rightmove as the main Agent.
Yeah Yeah, I am the Prat, I am the plank but fortunately for me I am smart enough not to be feeding the Cuckoo hatched in my nest.
More........
Lessons should be learned from this LATEST mess.
There is another, bigger question that should also be brought in on this:
Where are the RICS and NFOPP, the voices of their members, in the EARLY days of any government proposed legislation that affects the property industry? They should make themselves heard, loud & clear rght at the beginning. They do? not very effectivly then. Maybe it was discussed after a nice joint lunch!
How does EW find this out yet I got no response whatsoever? Fair play - but I am intrigued.
Well said @Keyagent.
It has been a headache. Its not about EPC's - its the address thing
Why would an agent publish the full postal address is they do not have to?
How could Rightmove have read something in the Law which simply isn't there.
How many smaller agents are really arrogant enough to know better, and those better informed erred on the side of wishful thinking.
At least EW took trouble to find out - even if its not good news, at least we know I am grateful for the clarity.
This has been our biggest issue over the past 2 weeks in giving advice. Its a shame the portals provided the wrong advice to their clients but I can only assume this was with good intentions for their clients.
If you are struggling with the 1st page extraction then the tool at the web address below will send you the 1st page in PDF and JPG. Its free and requires no registration.
http://www.keyagent.co.uk/keyagent-tools
If you have any further questions regarding the latest changes, please contact KeyAGENT. 01865 246 672
We also have a page on our website which has all the guidance needed including online marketing:
http://www.keyagent.co.uk/epc-legislation-changes
We hope this helps.
Ok - the facts are finally clear.
NOW Rightmove needs to immediately provide CORRECT advice and apologise for talking rubbish.
There are many agents who dont read this site and who will be relying upon misleading and inaccurate information
@Oi eric
"You really ought to be concerned that one day one of your vendors decides that the portals are the effective cause of sale and therefore refuses to pay your commission."
You really are a plank mate. Next newspapers? The Board company?
I am dealing with an 84 year old lady who is terrified people will knock on her door after she was the victim of a scammer fixing her roof.
She wont have a board and chose us, in part, because we dont use branded cars.
Now I have to put her full address for the whole world to data mine?
There should at least be a 'vulnerable persons clause'
Great news for Spicer Haart - instead of posting touts to every flat in a block, they will be able to target the one on the market.
This really is MENTAL.
I am pleased - not at the clarity - but because I was right and the MD and sales director were wrong.
What a mess!
Yet again the result of rushed and uninformed government legislation. An EPC is an EU directive and therfor cannot be changed - yet.
The problem is, as always, the practical mplementation by government departments ignorant of the sharp end of a business.
All those who advocate even more legislation, of any kind affecting the industry, should seriously think again.
Whilst I am not that bothered - I have to ask
"HOW CAN RIGHTMOVE GET IT SO WRONG?"
I am not a lawyer, but it seemed clear enough to me.
@?????
You MUST display the first page of the EPC.
The first page of the EPC shows the FULL postal address.
The CLG confimed that this CANNOT be redacted and MUST be displayed.
Where have you been??
Some confusion, where is there a requirement to publishthe full address of the property?
Rightmove spokesman confirmed: “The new EPC requirements apply to property particulars. Rightmove is a property advertising website and the information displayed on Rightmove by all our member agents takes the form of adverts and not property particulars. This is clearly stated at the bottom of every page on Rightmove that displays details which have been provided to us by the agent about a specific property, and will continue to do so."
“We have communicated this to Rightmove member agents and it remains our view in light of the most recent DCLG statement clarifying the new EPC requirements. We do, however, understand that some member agents may wish to display the full EPC as part of the property advert on Rightmove."
The Government say: "Where a property or letting agent intends to make more detailed information about a building available, either on their own website or another property portal, and the information provided meets the definition of written particulars then an EPC must be provided with those details. The onus will be on property and letting agents to ensure that an EPC is provided with those details not the website designer or the company who operates the property portal."
Simply, RM's advice to it fee paying members was WRONG.
Agents will have been encouraged to flout the law because of the address issue.
EW has done us a favour.
Actually, our EPC provider told us that whilst the address was mandatory - we could avoid attaching it to portals as they were advertisers as others have said.
Odd the moaning. I was pretty certain of the Law, but genuinely believed advice from the portals would be good - especially with meetings rumoured between them and CLG.
They wont meet with me!
As with others, my reluctance to upload the EPC was simply as a result of the full address being displayed. I dont give a stuff about the rest of it and its no trouble to upload - but I resent being made to disclose a full address.
We use to put "VACANT" as a selling point - but if the property gets broken into, may feel a sense of responsibility.
So - Ros prints an article which clarifies an important issue.
As below, I can readily comply with uploading an EPC but haven't as the portals I pay £9k a month to said it want necessary because of their disclaimer and I dont want to disclose flat numbers in particular.
One of our offices deal with a huge number of elderly people who are often living alone - they wont have boards in case someone knocks on the door!
The response, sanctimonious idiots professing to know it all yet who were completely silent until now - and even then, criticise anonymously.
@JackieOliver - "Where's the problem??"
The problem is not the ability to upload an EPC and @Oi Eric - its not about providing information - its about not displaying the address of the property.
How many agents will do this if the Portals say they don't need to?
Imagine adverting a property with 'No onward chain' or 'vacant' - a 14squatters dream as well as a tout charter.
Useful - I understood from my reading of the EPC law that Portals constituted written details and needed an EPC.
When RM said they didn't we didn't upload them as I didnt want the property address on the UK's biggest portal.
Whilst this clarity is helpful - its not welcome as I will now how disclose the full address in the certain knowledge most of my competitors wont.
Who says life is fair!
@John - you miss the point.
Whilst you are correct that only an agent controls the content they upload - Rightmove said it wasn't required because they are an advertiser as with newspapers.
You are also correct an agent should know the Law, but likewise, RIghtmove should NOT issue advice which contravenes it.
An average agent will listen to the RM legal team over their own, lay interpretation.
Its rather like saying a litigant should know the law and not rely upon the advice of a lawyer.
It is not down to the portals to give you advice about laws that apply to you and not to them.
I can not beleive this is still going on you all knpw the law has changed and you had to put the epc on right move etc
Who else can Put the ePc on right move no one but the agent ?
You need it to advertise everywhere else so why the big problems ???
It's not that it's not clear its that you don't agree that is not the same thing at all
@oi Eric
"You are the Feckin Agent, it is your job to supply enough information to the Applicant so they can make an informed decision."
1. How many applicants give a toss about an EPC
2. They are attached to the bloody details
3. Has anyone ever said "I am not buying that because of an EPC"
No - fool
Government: "If property portals are displaying written particulars – as defined in our Regulations (irrespective of what they may call them) – then the EPC needs to be attached. "
Rightmove "Its an advertisement and as such you do not to attach an EPC"
You dont get much more confusing than that so when we found out first page EPC solution, it was uploaded to portals.
This article is therefore very helpful.
EW makes a good point - but I smell a conspiracy!
RM say you dont need EPC's on their website. Government says you do. Trading standards can get a list of all agents without EPC's from RM - probably for a small fee and cut of the fines collected without Trading Standards having to leave their office.
The only good thing is what ever they are paying RM, it will go up next year until the Public Audit Office puts a stop to it!!
@ David Bennett - the law is express. You support breaking the Law?
NFoPP tried to get addresses redacted and failed.
Time to bite the bullet and comply
I dont see why 'anon' was so rude.
The only advice regarding portals in the public domain was issued by portals.
If one agent can get a clear, difinitive answer, why couldnt the huge portals and their legal teams.
As an energy assessor, I provide my agents with a separate front page of the EPC as a jpg, so they can upload it to the portals. As an ex-agent myself, I fully understand the reasoning not to include them, whilst the address cannot be removed. All vendors would be most unhappy to think their address is being openly displayed and the agent has no idea who has received the details. EAs don't include addresses in other forms of advertising, so why should the portals and websites be any different. Reasons not to upload - security, potential private sales, oh and open touting (wash my mouth out!). I have let my agents know that I fully support them not including the EPC on websites etc, until this has been addressed - pardon the pun!
@Jackie Oliver - there isn't a problem, but people have different means of displaying EPCs and Rightmove's advice may have left some agents exposed.
You are right, but a company of that size should NOT be giving out wrong advice. Its negligent.
The key issue is important. Its not about what EW does or doesn't do, its about the advice given from a company making 80% profit each year.
Rightmove were never going to be accountable for the content uploaded by agents. BUT agents were advised such content wasnt needed.
With the problems in separating the first page, many agent simply wont have bothered and have been placed in an invidious position.
An apology is needed and full, correct advice should be issued immediately.
Nevertheless, I grateful to EW for this exchange.
Rightmove told me an EPC did not need to be attached as well for the same reason and said their disclaimer covered it and not to worry.
This advice was WRONG and I am pretty miffed they put us in such a compromising position.
Thanks EAT for clarifying what the Government failed to do.
We were told by a major portal that we did NOT need to attach an EPC is a portal was an advertisement.
EW;s question and response has prevented us breaking the Law - just shows how little portal care about their customers or how how little they bother in giving correct advice.
Actually, EW has made a contentious issue clear.
Quote: "Thus the portals are advising agents that there is no need to attach EPC information on listings such as Rightmove’s and Zoopla’s"
This is clearly wrong and this article helps agents understand their obligations.
Cheers
"I appreciate that a law needs to be tested in court. However, as the Government wrote the law, perhaps you could clarify what was intended without prejudice to the courts’ later position and what guidance has been given to Trading Standards in this respect.”
Excellent question.
"I appreciate that a law needs to be tested in court. However, as the Government wrote the law, perhaps you could clarify what was intended without prejudice to the courts’ later position and what guidance has been given to Trading Standards in this respect.”
Excellent question.
If you can get the first page of your EPC on your own computer systems which print the details on paper and upload to your own website, it should be 'taken' by the property portals who show full details as it is part of those details! Where's the problem??
@Oi Eric
Prat.
You are the Feckin Agent, it is your job to supply enough information to the Applicant so they can make an informed decision.
If you don't understand that Portals and Newspapers are there solely to deliver applicant to your staff then you really are the wrong man in the wrong job.
You really ought to be concerned that one day one of your vendors decides that the portals are the effective cause of sale and therefore refuses to pay your commission.
Oh no, i feel an EPC premium upgrade deal coming on from rightmove lol
No Comment! just ££££ for us ;-)