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Written by rosalind renshaw

Today, I believe we have a chance to pull together as an industry, and I also believe it is a chance that will not come again: to draw a line in the sand over property portal charges.

This could be a seminal moment for the industry, if we seize the initiative and launch – or relaunch – PropertyLive as our own portal.

Agents should not hold back in the belief that it is not possible. It is not only possible, but it has been done before when circumstances were not dissimilar.

Back in pre-internet days, when colour magazines were the advertising medium of choice in London, one of the publications tried to hike its page rate by an absurd amount.

The result was the formation of CLEA (Central London Estate Agents) Ltd and the creation of the London Magazine, owned by the member agents. It charged its owner agents a cost-price page rate while non-shareholders paid commercial rates – and it was an overnight success. Most importantly, it set the limit on how much third party companies could charge for advertising, and agents could no longer be held to ransom.

Later on, Primelocation came from a CLEA initiative. The concept had immediate credibility because of the immense success of the London Magazine venture and Primelocation in its original form was ‘by the agents, for the agents’.

Today, there is an opportunity to adapt PropertyLive into a version of the London Magazine/ Primelocation models and to make it the ‘line in the sand’ for portal listing charges. There is potential to save the estate agency industry enormous amounts of money that currently goes into the pockets of the two major portals.

In the recent past I have given NFoPP the basic information on how to make PropertyLive a similar bastion against the likes of Rightmove and Zoopla overcharging us, and I offered to expand on that information so that the portal would become a viable and profitable commercial enterprise that would be available to ALL agents. Sadly, NFoPP has chosen instead to close the portal.

I believe that the NFoPP decision is not in the best interests of members, nor the wider industry.

If PropertyLive is discarded, it is inconceivable that such an opportunity will come again to put a brake on the inexorable price rises of the major portals. To throw PropertyLive away just because the original model was flawed would be a tragedy.

This is not about knocking Rightmove or Zoopla which, as commercial enterprises, will, quite rightly, continue to exploit their positions to the maximum. It is not about pulling off them in favour of PropertyLive. It is about quickly creating a credible alternative that gives agents the ability to say ‘No’ when Rightmove or Zoopla come knocking with yet another way-above-inflation price rise.

I would like to be able to urge NFoPP to reconsider their decision and to engage with those of us who believe that PropertyLive could relatively easily and inexpensively be altered so that it becomes viable. It could quickly prove to be an invaluable asset to agents.

But to get NFoPP to listen there will have to be a serious groundswell of support from the industry – and it needs to come right now!

I would be very pleased to hear from any firms – whether they are NAEA/ARLA members or not – that would be willing to consider a proposal to make PropertyLive a properly commercial enterprise owned by agent shareholders (to include NFoPP) and who are willing to subscribe for shares and to pay a monthly subscription. This would enable me to take the expressions of interest to NFoPP and explore the possibility of saving PropertyLive for the common good.  

If enough say ‘yes’, NFoPP might just listen.  


nicksalmon@splinta.co.uk

Comments

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    Hmm... I'm not sure if Facebook's Property Places is the answer but it very well could be, it is certainly a different proposition to a portal. We are currently on a trial period and have had some good feedback from existing sellers and landlords but not a high volume of leads yet.

    • 24 January 2013 18:52 PM
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    I didn't say throw a 7 figure sum at Facebook, I said throw it at a Facebook based search engine.

    And I have read what I said a few times now and I don't think I said that FB is a social media strategy either, but I could be wrong.

    And I definitely didn't say it isn't working for us.

    • 24 January 2013 16:11 PM
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    Facebook doesn't need a 7 figure sum to make it work!

    By the way a FB page isn't a social media strategy. It's like saying I have a web page that nobody uses therefore the Internet doesn't work.

    • 24 January 2013 09:38 AM
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    I disagree that Facebook is the way to go.

    As the marketing director for Finders and Sellers, I spend a lot of time optimising our website and although we have a face book page, I feel that social media and networking sites are better utilized as tools for raising the profile of your business website.

    If you want a site to rival the Rightmove’s and Zoopla’s of this world then I'm afraid throwing a seven figure sum at a Facebook based search engine isn't the way to go.

    Only when the property professionals amongst you say ‘we won’t be held to ransom any more’ will things get better.

    • 24 January 2013 09:07 AM
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    As much as I hate to say it but Facebook is the future, there new Graph Search will change everything.

    • 24 January 2013 08:14 AM
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    the new challenger....should be INEA A GREAT IDEA WAITING TO HAPPEN

    • 24 January 2013 07:22 AM
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    Who is the new challenger....

    A new Version of Property Live?
    Facebook Property Places?
    Improved Radar?
    Regional Niche Portals?
    MLS clusters?

    • 23 January 2013 21:26 PM
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    Do you mean something like .... Countrywide? brilliant idea duplicate their own effort and compete with themselves? sounds like a plan

    • 23 January 2013 15:46 PM
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    I have been screaming from the roof tops for 3 months now

    Free, free, free.

    We saw that the market needed to change and we have offered the choice to make it happen, slowly but surely property professionals around the world are starting to hear what we are saying and are taking the plunge.

    It is a slow and frustrating journey but we will get there with your support.

    I am a guest here so I won't try to post a link but do a Google search on finders and sellers and help us change the way your advertise your properties.

    • 23 January 2013 15:27 PM
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    So Ray, damned if we do and damned if we don't. It's an invidious position to be in. Shall we all just hand over our wallets to RM and Zoopla and be done with it?

    • 23 January 2013 14:50 PM
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    The way I am beginning to think is that (unless high street agents come up with something inclusive to them all and one that forms a critical mass to keep them in business) Rightmove will expand into a national agent with sales reps in all the major population areas - dealing with the public direct.
    In my opinion it will certainly happen if their monopoly is threatened. It would be a natural progression?

    • 23 January 2013 14:13 PM
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    John - I think we have all had varying increases from Zoopla recently - that is afterall what this discussion stems from.

    It's not what the portals do that we despise, they actually do a very good job, it's the mamouth profits they seek to make from the same people who supported and promoted them when they first started. I doubt they would have enjoyed such success if we had not all been pointing our customers (and the public in general) to them from our shops, websites and adverts. We should be treated as "partners", not "prey". We feel cheated.

    And then there is the arrogance and cotempt delivered by many of their sales reps. It all adds up...

    I guess in the end, if we don't do something about it now, the portals will eventually be charging so much that every agent in the country will be forced to increase their fees to clients.

    • 23 January 2013 13:12 PM
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    I think that when anyone is top of their field it breeds arrogance, and that is how I find Rightmoves attitude. We moan about the costs but because we are scared to leave them, they will keep increasing their costs. Zoopla have increased my monthly sub by 175% - WTF ! Yes, they've added findaproperty and globrix but I'm on the verge of telling them where to go. Have been with needaproperty.com for last 4 months paying them 50 quid a month, it's been okay......but just ok. Will wait and see after their TV ads to see what happens. Has anyone else had a massive rise from Zoopla? I feel betrayed as I've been with them for so long.....

    • 22 January 2013 20:56 PM
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    we have been a Radar Homes member since its beginning. We will be placing a delay on any leads to Rightmove and Zoopla in favour of our own new site and Radar. Too many signed up and expected too much to quickly. we know get leads every day and good, qualified ones at that. Don't re invent the wheel. get on board and make it work.
    Goundrypearce (Cornwall)

    • 22 January 2013 17:55 PM
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    All sensible independent estate agents, should be in favour of this situation taking place. We wish you all the very best Mr Salmon! Go for it!!

    I'd urge any agent to show their full support here, as soon as possible.

    • 22 January 2013 16:40 PM
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    Of course it is disappointing that Property Live has failed but it takes a massive investment to make these things successful. Human nature of course means that we all moan about the shortcomings of a product until it fails and then we all lament its loss. We run a successful agency and subscribe to the team network. Everyone has heard of their website www.teamprop.co.uk which has been going for over 20 years. It's not massive but it has incredible longevity which alongside the multi-listing facet gives its members a massive Google ranking. This in turn generates more Valuations from sellers since Google is often the default setting before you buy anything. It has a cost but then it has a reward, it is very unusual to have no cost for something and a reward it just does not work!

    • 22 January 2013 16:05 PM
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    JG There are two kinds of slow; too slow and strategically slow. Both can be frustrating for all concerned but strategic slow where things are deliberatly released in a measured way is very often beneficial in the long run.

    Radar has a reworked site getting closer to delivery and rather than rush out something to satisfy impatience, it is far better to get it right, a bit like property details!

    • 22 January 2013 14:34 PM
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    I really like Rightmove.

    It's expensive but it does what it says on the tin.

    • 22 January 2013 14:32 PM
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    Do you not think that is the end game anyway and effectively Agents as they exist at the moment will cease to be. The successful business owner taking instructions in order to feed the two big portals and the best of the negotiators as sales people?

    Without an alternative to the pair of dominants and any attempt to create an alternative quashed by infighting and egos it is all too easy to see where this is all going.

    • 22 January 2013 14:19 PM
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    It seems to me that a few things differ greatly between agents in built-up areas with very busy businesses and those of us out in the sticks. For one, I am not the only agent locally that has left RM (some years ago), partly because of cost and partly because they were not interested in me as a customer and most unhelpful. If I treated vendors like that, i wouldnt have any.
    Secondly, we still need to run plenty of local newspaper advertising around here which accounts for a large chunk of my budget, a large percentage of our population being much older. This means that the enormous cost of RM would have such an impact on my business that I just can't afford it.
    Some of us have small rural markets which do not run the same way as those of you in the cities and home counties. Therefore, an opportunity for a portal for agents, by agents seems a good thing to me. Radarhomes are trying to do that but the progress is too slow. If Propertylive (already known by at least NFoPP members) should have a better chance with financial backing to succeed.
    One major point that most seem to be missing is that the consumer (our buyers) will search wherever the properties are. If RM no longer offered them a good selection of property for sale - they wouldn't just assume that was all there was - they would look elsewhere. So many are looking at Google now anyway and as long as you get your portal on that first page, the buyers will soon learn to change. Therefore, surely the portal that has the most property to offer will be the one that succeeds in the end. All it takes is for agents to make a united decision!

    My market is pretty dismal at the moment but in 2009, we had a great year with property selling quickly and we did not use RM then and Zoopla was not really a contender either, so our leads came from Primelocation/Findaproperty and some from local publicaitons. A serious buyer will find the property he wants wherever it is advertised.

    • 22 January 2013 12:31 PM
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    Some observations for both sides of the argument;

    @ ShaunD - Regarding the portal ownership argument; Tesco are a grocer but they also own TescoDirect.com. They are in fact their own supplier of portal services, as indeed many other businesses are.

    @To All - as to monthly subscriptions and overall operating costs; please bear in mind that RightMove spends around £28 million per annum running their business. Will the agenc community pledge that level of support on an onging basis?

    Major Chains' Membership – please bear in mind that the major player EA's do not pay the rack rate price for the two portals, but considerably less. Therefore the attraction of this proposal to the majors will be less and you should not count on their support.

    However, unlike other major portal businesses e.g. Amazon, the products being sold via the site currently have one source of suppliers – the agency community. The public will go to where the products are listed and with concentrated effort and management the EA community could control the supply side of the equation.

    On the flip side there is one other thing to consider – if agents desert RM & Zoopla on a large scale the duopoly firms will not simply roll over and die, they will fight back to protect their businesses and their shareholders interests. Indeed having some £1.3bn of share holder value invested in the business their shareholders will definitely demand action of the Directors.
    The likely action is that the duo will offer their services directly to members of the public, and with the sites already enjoying such a high public profile the public are likely to take them up on the offer with the potential of cutting the agent out of the house sale process all together.

    Please consider the wider commercial repercussions of this initiative.

    • 22 January 2013 12:20 PM
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    To Propertyman / James P / Are you joking, variously...

    You'd be mistaken if you categorised Radar as a big portal hater.

    In fact, quite the contrary... If you'd been to any of our conferences, or spent the time to understand our strategy in depth, you'd know that:

    (1) Radar are big believers in the value that Rightmove offers - we think it's a powerful business, offering a great product and service which we admire - even if we don't like the situation. We don't recommend pulling off - that would (as you quite rightly point out) be silly. We are however worried about the power and price that monopolies end up developing, we're looking at the data on the usage and we believe it's headed that way if agent's don't develop their own alternative. We suspect that government regulation (a la Yellow Pages) is the most likely end game, though not just yet. We think Zoopla have done a good job, but ultimately they are a distant second, and only lead down the same route of cranking prices (as we are already starting to see fast now - it's another business in the same vein), so the best case scenario, agent's end up with a weak duopoly - with neither business acting in co-operative agent interests or control. No price caps, and no end in sight, given the relative value and powerful position portals hold.

    (2) No, the strategies that Radar deploy are considerably more sophisticated, and the value we offer our members is not be immediately apparent from the surface - it goes far beyond lead delivery which is only one aspect of the product these days. We have valuable ideas to limit the damage, develop local strength, and help agents in variety of ways throughout the process. We think there are things you can do, which we work with members on, which lower you dependency, and strengthen your own (and your own portal's) position in the process.

    (3) Your cost per lead calculation may be correct for you, but according to the numbers we see, they aren't correct for the average client, by a long chalk. Perhaps you haven't tried lately - the picture is changing quickly as the SEO performance gathers momentum (page 1 and climbing for many towns), or perhaps you haven't tried at all? Lead volumes individual agents also vary widely, depending on which other portals and agent is on, and how aggressively the other portals (big and small - many of them are sophisticated) are buying traffic to that agent's listings in the various vertical search engines - how much they care about your business, which will vary based on your strength in a local town (do they need you), the length of your membership with a portal, which other portals you are on, their assessment of your risk of cancelling with them, etc.

    (4) Radar engages in a lot of training in how to get the best out of your own agent site (with some quite sophisticated techniques that even the high performing online agents - thoughtful, probably online sophisticates like yourself will benefit from) to help you improve your SEO, your social media presence, your lead responsiveness, and understanding of the quantity and value of your enquiries from all sources.

    (5) The design you are looking at for the current Radar is about to be completely revamped (I can only imagine you haven't looked at the new designs we've been emailing lately, otherwise I doubt you'd be saying that). And the technology is far from a joke. The design may be letting it down at the moment, but the value it is offering, both in terms of tools under the bonnet (which you won't understand or have seen unless you take up the challenge of engaging with us to talk about them - that's an invitation by the way), but also in terms of the ideas we can bring your business is good.

    (6) In sum: Radarhomes is DIFFERENT. It has a portal - but that's just the start. We now work far more widely to help agents with the presence in the web ecosystem at large. And our relaunch will see the introduction of some genuinely DIFFERENT approaches, lots of social media - done properly, lots of chance to showcase your agency properly, video, and a few more points we can't talk about until we launch. Watch this space. It's a different game.

    I'll say this again - as I'd like to get this back on track - Nick - we'd like to work with you... We have the agent ownership and shareholder structure all set up (legally complex). We have an established base, billing engine and processes, a customer service team, online marketing experience, SEO traction and process etc.. And we'd be very well placed to work with you, if you are interested. Together we could be powerful.

    Pete

    • 22 January 2013 11:07 AM
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    do you have any idea what the average house pice is?
    £160,000
    average commission?
    1.5%

    If the portals want to switch to a commission base rather than a subscription base then you have come up with a perfect solution that focuses Agents and the portals on what actually sells rather than monkey punching a calculator and thinking all the enquiries from Nigeria and Russia are people interested in buying property in the UK.

    From the other story Miles shot himself in the foot with his comment about people visiting Rightmove on Christmas day, Mike Hunt from Nigeria is not a real applicant even though he claims to have millions of pounds just waiting to be unlocked!!!

    Spivs selling to idiots!

    • 22 January 2013 11:04 AM
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    Errrrr and what would your profit be on a property you have sold for £2 million?

    • 22 January 2013 10:57 AM
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    It isn't that us small agents dislike anyone for making a profit, we understand that like out businesses that is good business, what I/we do not like is excessive profits that no-one is able or willing to justify. with 55,000 individuals working in agency in the UK why should I give donate £1600 from each of my staff salaries towards their profits. Given the choice I would rather have it for me and my staff.
    £1600 is 10% of my average staff basic pay and I am sure each of them would think even more of me than they do if I could afford to give them an extra £1600.

    the multi million pounds of profit is not running cost and therefore there is no reason for the exhorbitant monthly fee. I know all the blah blah blah about the cost of print advertising being much higher but that was down to production and delivery costs. Once any portal is written, hosted and cost of sale covered evn the biggest portal could afford a monthly fee sub £100.

    • 22 January 2013 09:37 AM
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    For some of the posters writing negative comments (which you are entitled to do), re-read the article, it is an article to see who would be interested. And by all accounts if Nick Salmons email is bursting, then i think this is a good thing as it showing agents do want to club together for a change.

    - Nowhere does it say this is a Rightmove or Zoopla killer.

    - This article has nothing to do with Tervor Mealhams shameless piggy backing and spamming to try and advertise his site.

    We as agents have all of the valuable data to make something like this work.

    • 22 January 2013 09:22 AM
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    I find it quite interesting reading this and other posts that a few small agents dislike the portals making money on the basis that it is off the agents content.

    What do they think Google does (which makes a lot more money off content of others) or the banks do (which make huge sums off customers money) or newpapers (who make money from advertising others content).

    It is the way of the world - suppliers provide services and charge for doing so. Customers can choose whether the service is worth paying for or not. Some of the people writing here seem unbeleivably naiive about the way the world works.

    Trying to become your own supplier to replace others which is the theme here is a sure way to lose sight of your core business. If you want to run a portal, go ahead. If you want to run an estate agency, go ahead. Just because the person who wrote this artcile wants to start a portal and radarhomes desperately needs other agents to join and others desperately need more technology customers doesnt make this a good idea.

    • 22 January 2013 09:09 AM
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    it is simply not correct to claim that the Technology behind Radar homes is "old and not as intelligent as it's competition" Exactly the opposite is true.
    The legacy of trying to piece together multiple sites going back to Asserta and Think as well as the more recent but still comparatively ancient Findaproperty and Primelocation is still a far more onerous task than a clean sheet site which is some 40 months old and currently being reworked.
    The cost of developing and reworking recent code is an exponential fraction of the cost of amalgamating or reworking established code and hence the financial investment required for the likes of Radar are a fractional too.
    As I said yesterday Radar do not need to be part of this discussion but obviously there are those that want to use this story as an opportunity to knock their efforts.

    • 22 January 2013 08:17 AM
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    It’s a resounding ‘YES’ from me in regard to supporting Nick's proposal for PropertyLive – count me in – 2 x Surrey Offices and currently spending an obscene figure just to be with the big two!! And guess what boys & girls - it's going to go up exponentially.
    Personally, I do not feel that the Board of the NFoPP has made this decision in our best interests whatsoever...not even a membership consult on possibly the biggest decision they’ve made in my 28 years!!

    • 22 January 2013 07:48 AM
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    Unfortunately, I think this is nothing but a good idea in principle that will never work. Nick, if you want to make this happen, and I respect your aspiration please consider my comments...

    What is the point of trying to save Property Live or promote Radar Homes in it's current form when:

    We already know that the "support" of 14,000 agents, or NFoPP couldn't make it work.

    These portal wannabes don't offer consumers anything different or better. Unless you are going to offer consumers a better, more distinctive service then they are not going to break the current cycle of going to Search or brand loyalty without buying the space.

    In the event that we got £50-£100 from each of the agents in support, we then might be able to to buy some voice but what would the retention strategy be? The current technology offered by both PropertyLive and Radar Homes is already old and not as intelligent as it's competition. Where is the investment for technology and innovation going to come from?

    An agent owned portal with some money in Google SEO and PPC is a weak proposition and I'm sure Zoopla and RightMove's teams are smiling as they read this.

    Perhaps its something that we should look to build up over the coming years but if we are looking for a high impact response then this isn't it.

    I agree that this idea has potential otherwise I wouldn't be spending my time writing this at stupid o'clock! However the overall strategy needs a lot more commercial reality added to it. I don't think many of the agents in this forum will add that, what you need is the support of agents with a strong commercial management team to make this work and really challenge the portals.

    • 22 January 2013 06:57 AM
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    By posting the cost of leads means you either work for RM or Zoopla or are daft enough to think the sales pitch is correct.

    Between them the duopoly reckons 22-24 million people visit their sites every month, there are only 60,000 completions every month. The portals do not create every single sale so until one sits down to work out where the Buying leads are coming from it not sensible to think that unverified numbers of hits, visits, page views or leads actually has any meaning other than it being a number. When the numbers are verified and translated into completed sales, that is when they mean something.
    As for not being fair when two self supporting posts get deposited on here after hours within minutes of each other it is usually two blokes (often just the one) who work together as service suppliers to Agents rather than being Agents themselves. Those post can be dismissed for what they are, an obvious attempt to control the competition.
    Sour grapes? Someone saw fit to bring Radar into this and it is only right, proper and natural that they took the time and trouble to post in defence of what they are going about achieving. It is nice to see that their member Agents also took time to post in support of them, on EAT that is a rare thing indeed and says a lot about the respect those Agents have for Radar.

    • 22 January 2013 05:55 AM
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    @How Brave - I am not sure that is fair. I have only just caught time to look at this having been working on my day job (showing properties in the snow) all day long!. For those who are posting on here during business hours, doesnt it say more about them than about those who are too busy to post until evening?

    @ JamesP - couldn't agree more with you and Joking. This is madness and pure emotion with no sound commercial sense anywhere in here. I pay about £5 per enquiry to Rightmove, Zoopla is a little less at around £4. Why would I pay Radar, Propertylive or anyone else £75 to get nothing or maybe 5 leasds at £15 each?? I have nothing against Miles or Alex as long as they continue to deliver good value and they do for now. Nothing else comes close. A new portal startup, whether agent owned or otherwise, is welcome to my business if they can deliver same value but they dont. There are new protal startups every 5 minutes that are a complete waste of time - needaproperty, moveto, etc. I don't know how many agents there are (I think I read about 20,000 offcies somewhere) but having a small group of portal haters on a fiorum like this does not a consensus make and does make the commercial argument any stronger.

    All the big portal haters seem to gather here - radar, homeflow, agents who are not busy showing properties....wonder why - sounds like sour grapes to me.

    • 22 January 2013 00:04 AM
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    Trevor - I wish you luck.

    It doesn't work for me.

    Increasing fees to sub out?

    Why should a client pay a higher fee for you to sell or let their property via another agent?

    Most agents advertise on the portals, why do they need another agent to give them the lead that's going to close the deal? Why aren't they generating that lead themselves?

    Who are the agents signing up to this service? Small independents? One office agents? Any large multi branch businesses?

    Are agents coming off one portal whilst the other stays on it to share leads through your system? If so what's the benefits in this?

    I just can't see the value in this for agents. I really can't see how this would work for a portal.

    I've read your explanations a few times but it doesn't seem like a solution modern agents would agree with.

    However I'm open to further education that may change my mind.

    • 22 January 2013 00:00 AM
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    Home page of NAEA website still has PropertyLive on it.... maybe it was all one big wind up??

    • 21 January 2013 22:40 PM
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    to wait till everyone has knocked off for the day before posting.

    The very reason to do this is to give Agents the ability to control their costs, with the option of an up and running alternative to Rightmove and Zoopla. A group of Agents linked by a common thread can turn around to Miles and to Alex and say. Thank you very much but we are simply not going to pay the increase.

    £75/month for a standard Radar subscription is actually 25% of the proposed monthly increase from Zoopla. If you can't work out that spending £75 to save £300 isn't good business sense then I might well ask you the same question.

    It doesn't matter to a good agent how many leads come from the portal, half a glass of drinking water is of more use to a thirsty man than a swimming pool of slurry.

    • 21 January 2013 20:57 PM
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    Couldn't agree more with 'Are you joking'

    I too have kept an eye on this thread and it is unbelievable that agents think they can create a whole new portal.

    I agree with every single word that 'Are you joking' has said. The more of you that leave RM & Z, the better for me. Just because you've got 60 odd comments of support, doesn't mean there is 'appetite' for it.

    Agents should be careful what they wish for.

    • 21 January 2013 20:25 PM
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    I have read this chain with great interest. I have been in agency for almost 15 years so have wathced the change from print to digital marketing closely. We have 3 successful branches in the South East. However, what I am reading here gives me cause to wonder if I am on a different planet from some of the others posting here.

    * RadarHomes is a joke - practically no househunters visit it and never will - so what is the point? The tech behind it (Homeflow) is equally a joke.
    * The 'build it and they will come' mentality is just wrong. Propertylive did that as have so many others like Radar - they (the househunters) didn't come. You have to invest huge sums in marketing as Rightmove did and Zoopla is now doing. I am talking millions and I for one have no interest in spending my money on that.
    * Even if you do spend millions, there is no guarantee of success as we have seen so many times in the last 10 years. Why did propertyfinder, propertyindex, thinkproperty and so many others fail - it was not for lack of spend.
    * Putting the logo in your windows and ads - that worked 10 years ago when the internet was new and it was virgin terroritory - not now there are well established brands that are well known by consumers. That doesnt work otherwise Fish4 and Propertyfinder would have been the biggest player siince they weret backed by the newspaper groups and had logos everywhere.
    * Paying a membership fee to a portal like propertylive or radar homes is a crazy idea - it would just increase my marketing spend and deliver nex tto nothing in return. why would i want to increase my costs for no return? I only care about the return on my marketing investment. I pay Rightmove monthly what I used to spend weekly in print and Zoopla about half that - and I get way more value from them than i ever got in print - so my marketing return has gone up signnificantly. I dont feel unhappy.
    * There have been people on here saying promotoe propertylive for years - and some did - and it was still a dud. Getting even half the agents in the country to sign up to it would be a miracle and then it would require huge investment to get it right and then market it properly. No chance.

    In summary, there is no good commercial reason for agents to do this unless they want to increase their costs. The arguments are all based on emotion and the fact that nobody likes Rightmoves price increases. They are still cheap relative to print or anything else. Stating otherwise is a sign that you shouldn't be on there as your business can't convert leads. Not being on Rightmove or being able to afford it is a very different argument to starting your own competior which will cost you money and deliver a worse return. Good luck with this crazy idea Nick but you can count us out and am sure we are not alone. I have no intention of throwing money away. It is one thing to be emoitonal and vent about unwanted price increases - it is quite another to put money behind a flawed venture. I don't want or need to own shares in a portal - I want to sell and let houses and spend my marketing on ways to improve this. i am going to continue to do exactly that and the more of you that pull off Rightmove, the happier I will be.

    • 21 January 2013 18:47 PM
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    Dave R

    Sorry - I don't have your email or any easy way to identify you.

    So I hope you are reading this - or if someone knows who you are, please do get in touch. My email is just my firstname @ homeflow.co.uk.

    In answer to your question...

    6000 is a very strong number - built up by being the people behind about 20 different specialist, local and national portals in the UK, for newspaper groups, magazines, online specialists etc.

    Collectively we power what is easily the third largest portal network in the UK. It's just we're fully distributed working for our clients.

    Only a very small subset of those 6000 are on the Radarhomes site, which is being discussed here. That site is strongest in certain geographies, notably SW (Devon, Cornwall, Somerset), Bristol, Coventry, Salisbury, Dorset - to name a few of the stronger clusters.

    Anyone interested in powering a serious portal - needs to be aware that building a portal is much like building a car. Lots of them are on the road, and they all have 4 wheels and look like cars, but very few have a 5 litre engine, good suspension, leather seats, heated rear view mirrors etc. And, if you're going to run in the big race, having a fast car with good detail under the bonnet, is essential to avoid being crushed.

    At one level they are incredibly simple sites - only a few key pages. But at another level there is an extraordinary amount of sophistication.

    There's also a LOT that goes into the sophisticated SEO, feed management, lead management, email alert systems and PPC work required to make any traction. Worse, some of these things are relatively easy to cobble together at small scale, but become very tricky to do well, at speed, and at high scale.

    There's an open invitation to NFOPP / groups of agents / and indeed Nick Salmon's project to chat to us about the sophisticated systems required to have a chance of making a project like this actually fly. We've amassed a wealth of experience over the years in doing this, and certainly have the credentials to make it a worthwhile / informative chat.

    We'd love to see this work.

    Jeremy

    • 21 January 2013 18:21 PM
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    Trev, please don't feel that you have take time in replying to Happy Chappy. No one here will think any less of you if you tell him to do one.

    • 21 January 2013 16:48 PM
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    Please dismiss any notion or idea from the outset that any of the code from Propertylive is worth anything, it is not and anyone who says any different is ego bound or just daft.
    It was flawed in May 2010 and has not improved.

    If you are serious about this then either write something from scratch and we will talk in minimum 2 years when your beta version is ready for release or talk to those who are offering you a proven solution. (choose the best one because I am sure your inbox is full of offers from every Joe Blow who has put together a site and tried to plug it on here. AsktheHomeserach, Propertymatch are two that come to mind.

    Most of them are out of their depth so choose carefully but whatever you do, have nothing the do with the crud from Arbon House.

    • 21 January 2013 16:29 PM
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    May I thank everyone for their comments to date. Please keep them coming. Thanks also for staying mostly on-topic. It does make reading so much easier.

    My inbox is working overtime and I am already sure that there is an appetite for what is proposed in the article. Clearly there are many questions to be answered but the basic proposition of making Property Live an agent owned portal on a commercial footing is sound.

    Please will you all now send a link to this article to everyone you know in the industry and ask them to express their support. Those of you who remember where Splinta started will know how powerful this can be.

    More news in due course but in the meantime, have no doubt - WE CAN DO THIS.

    • 21 January 2013 15:58 PM
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    YES! In response to the article. Don't think I need to say anymore!

    • 21 January 2013 15:41 PM
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    YES! In response to the article. Don't think I need to say anymore!

    • 21 January 2013 15:41 PM
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    I, like many others, was surprised at the decision to abandon PropertyLive. Not least as only a few days earlier a positive email was sent to all of the membership saying how great the new site was going to be. I would hope that this decision could be reversed and that this U-turn will be the first step in creating a cost affective site promoting the professional body’s aims as owner of the site, and its member’s properties

    • 21 January 2013 15:28 PM
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    HAPPY CHAPPY
    The big difference is that s agents pitch a sole fee and an upsell fee. The upsell provides extra comm that can be offered for sub intros. If the sub agent gains leads from places the main agent doesnt advertise, then a sale can happen that wouldnt.

    If there is only a budget fee then there isnt enough in the pot to sub out.

    DAVE
    Im on the train now going to Shortlands Bromley to meet local agents looking to network their listings. Meeting at 6pm. Thur 24th in Brent Cross, N London meeting 20+ agents networking listings and 31st in Surrey with a growing cluster who are subbing and getting sales and lets together.

    McCanns Surrey emailed over the weekend as just done another mls sale with another of our members.

    MLS is growing. Agents are growing larger local network clusters.

    • 21 January 2013 15:23 PM
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    The latest edition of The Estate Agent has just arrived on my desk.

    And there it was spalshed right across the bottom of the address insert, a b****y great ad promoting Property Live!

    As our adopted son Homer would say, DOH!!

    • 21 January 2013 14:42 PM
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    Happy Chap - As I understand it there is a larger overall percentage of smaller independent agents by some measure. This could be a very powerful force if brought together.

    But yes getting the larger agents on board would be a massive benefit and difficult task.

    How this is done is a question we all need to suggest answers too.

    Someone will have knowledge of why the larger agents (or even a small number of them) may want to support this cause. Whoever you are, please speak up.

    • 21 January 2013 14:05 PM
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    Trevor - my personal opinion is that agents no longer wish to share comms. I maybe wrong but it feels like a backward step to me considering how we do business today.

    My view is that if my business can't sell or let something, it's because we have done something wrong and we need to learn what that was to become better agents. Allowing another agent to take some of our commission because we didn't do something well enough is poor in my view. It may even cause some staff to become complacent. I want my business working as efficiently and effectively as possible and sharing comms isn't the solution for me.

    I don't think it's the solution for an agent portal either as I believe your suggesting.

    I have been involved in an online agency business and I agree with all comments in this thread regarding difficulty of building traffic and recognition etc.

    Yes this generally means substantial investment into SEO and PPC as JT mentioned. However I believe there is one key difference here.

    Agents can give this portal strength, if enough agents come on board. The strength is in numbers and certainly in large brands becoming involved.

    JT I'd be very interested in hearing how the 6000 member agents of Radar support the portal?

    6000 is an extremely strong number and I would of thought that Radar would have a stronger presence.

    Can the member agents not do more to increase awareness and raise the profile of the portal?

    Paying a subscription and relying on the portal alone is not enough. Agents need to be included in the business plan in more ways other than sources of subscription fees. We should all come together with ideas and discuss.

    I suspect the majority of Radar members still subscribe to RM and Zoopla in the fear that they will loose leads?

    It would also be interesting to how NFOPP managed PropertyLive. In my view this should have been a much stronger portal and maybe they didn't make enough effort when the realised how much it was costing?

    I think there is a lot agents can learn from to build a solution, but it will be a fight that agents will need to come together to win.

    • 21 January 2013 13:57 PM
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    Happy Chappy

    The corporates probably wouldnt leave as they have a vested interested in the portals. In Fact, I wouldn't see every independent leaving either.

    But If their is another alternative, that works for agents, at a better price, the portals wouldn't be able to keep increasing their prices each year.

    We as agents actually have the power to club together to get the word out there, through the data we hold.

    When I bought my last house, at least three of the agents told me I go see all of their properties on rightmove.

    • 21 January 2013 13:34 PM
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    I had always believed that if run properly, PropertyLive would have generated enough income to mitigate membership costs of NFOPP as a minumum plus allow others to join for free subject to passing the qualification standard.

    By now PropertyLive should have been the showcase for the country’s most professional agents and best property. Why the site never listed NFOPP members and others either operating under a strict code of conduct or differentiated non-members to further encourage membership is beyond me. Surely the public would have bought in to that

    As others have said if enough agents upload data the public will come the the site. It really is as simple as that.

    I would urge everyone to support Nick Salmon's lead here.

    • 21 January 2013 13:30 PM
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    "IF"..... but it wont happen will it because the corporates will stay with the portals.

    • 21 January 2013 13:21 PM
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    Stuart C.....

    Further more all agents push and direct all applicants to this site and it will save millions in media advertising.

    It's time to all stand together before it starts to get out of hand!

    • 21 January 2013 13:20 PM
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    People worrying about getting the public to visit this site instead of RM and Zoopla. If all properties from all agents are on this site and not on RM and Zoopla, the public will go to this site.

    • 21 January 2013 13:12 PM
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    Trevor...you are missing one important factor, The USP of portals is that they have the largest number of properties in one place. Beacuse of this the portals are the place a majority of buyers go to look for property.

    The more any platform has restrictions on who adverstises on it, the less useful it will be to vendors and buyers.

    Which brings me on to my next point the membership criteria of the INEA are very vague and you refuse to clarify them.

    So what if Visum advertise at £39? If they provided the same service but charged the vendor 1.5% of a sale they would appear to be fine by the INEA.

    The only way your MLS will become a viable ulternative ( in the eyes of vendors and buyers) is if all the ther subscibers do not also advertise on Rightmove or Zoopla.

    If this happens in order to gain maximum exposure vendors will want to see their property on all portals. Of course this will push up the cost to them.....oh yes sorry i forgot you are not interested in offering value to your customers are you....just like rightmove eh!

    Good luck

    • 21 January 2013 12:53 PM
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    Completely agree that agents need to take a stance and source a way to protect themselves from being victims of the portals.

    PropertyLive is a great solution if agents gain control. It doesn't matter how much advertising the portals do, buyers and tenants will go where the property stock is and where agents tell them too. This alone will provide a chunk of market share.

    Could this be the start of a portal boycott?

    If agents feel strong enough and brave enough to take action, maybe.

    The portals need to be shown there is an alternative for agents and if they treat agents unfairly they will loose subscriptions.

    I like the portals and the job they do for us, but they do push us too far and we must find a way to restrain them.

    • 21 January 2013 12:52 PM
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    As per the last thread, count us in.

    • 21 January 2013 12:16 PM
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    I think this will work but with the caveat that from day one it is agreed that the website is a non for profit portal that will not be turned into a Rightmove and Zoopla at some point down the line, as this would defeat the object of the exercise.

    But I am interested in hearing how this can be done!

    • 21 January 2013 12:05 PM
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    I strongly agree with Mr Gibson and Mr Wilkinson, a portal that is Agent owned and Agent led by committee is the only way forward. Radar Homes is already out there and does exactly what this forum is suggesting. As a company we subscribe and support it fully and if the mojority of Agents joined it would really fly and save us all a fortune!!

    • 21 January 2013 12:02 PM
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    Nick RM and z could fund large advertising campaigns. To a level Joe Public buys in.

    Any great success by a ri al portal alone and they could increase the anti.

    They also do a lot of vertical searching via other main websites that "whitelabel" show RM and z listings.

    So what would you do different on the IT side to put the money taken in subscriptions back into agents pockets.

    As said most buyers looking are already with agents selling. Take or delay listings appearing on main portals. Even by 7-10 days and public would have to search first listers.

    Increased seo is great. But slow or remove content from main portals and they have nothing to seo on. Content and strategy are king. No portal alone will break whats currently there.

    • 21 January 2013 11:33 AM
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    QUICKBRIT

    I understand the problem. The trouble is that 3-4 agents go in to value who are not working together. If they feel their only outlets are main portals then one will over value. The second offer a low comm. 3 and 4 then have a hard pitch. To keep property stkck up on RM and Z do they accept too high a price and too low comm.

    If agents work together they could save nominating who does what portals.

    The pitch then becomes instruct us and you get many agents. Motivated sellers do pay more. The upsell pays other agents intro comm.

    Equalls less agents on portals. More commissions exchanged between agents. MLS or subbing as we knew before portals started coming in and taking a monthly cut.

    • 21 January 2013 11:18 AM
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    The time has come! unless of course we are all happy to be screwed to the ground by the current duopoly and some do seem happy? Now that property live appears in its current guize to be out of the frame, there is in my opinion only one alternative and that's Radar - We are a current subscriber and we do receive leads, not lots but it is improving - Now that it is being run on the Homeflow platform i know we can expect great things, i have seen the pre-launch new site and it is going to be fantastic. their new MD is a very smart chap indeed, posting on here as JT - If we all get behind the agent owned portal Radar, it will very quickly become a more viable cost effective alternative. There may never be a better time so let's do it!!

    • 21 January 2013 11:18 AM
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    Lord Kent - I agree. NFoPP had their chance and after spending OUR money, threw in the towel.

    I believe rather than waste all this m oney, they should hand it over and step away.

    Members / ex members / regulated agents would then be able to form a working group and share ideas for innovation and funding.

    There is nothing worse than wasted potential.

    • 21 January 2013 11:17 AM
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    I think it is a great idea, and needs a voice in the industry such as Nick Salmons to get things heard.

    Note for anyone at the NAEA who reads this: I would happily sign up to membership if this idea was to be considered.

    If this idea does not go ahead now, it never will, and Zoopla and RM will carry on to the death.

    Nick i will be emailing you.

    p.s I am sure Eric Walkers ideas would be invaluable as well.

    • 21 January 2013 11:14 AM
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    I said PropertyLive would not survive when I finally threw the towel in with NFLOPP/NAEA through frustration with their total disregard for members (their life blood).

    A competing portal to Rightmove owned by we agents (be it a phoenix PropertyLive or some other) is a tempting thought, however, anyone who suggests NFLoPP should retain ANY involvement in it is, to my mind, misguided in the extreme.

    I applaud my old friend Nick Salmon in his.initiative, but the task would be enormous, daunting indeed.

    Finally, I do agree it would be so much more helpful if more interested posters were brave enough to use their own names. Keep warm, Big T

    • 21 January 2013 11:08 AM
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    The team here at Radar Homes have read the article and the comments with interest. It goes without saying that we are interested in helping agents take back control of their internet marketing. It is sad that Property Live has not worked – the site had good intentions, but building a property portal is a long, complex and expensive process, that depends largely on sound technical backing, plus effective SEO building and PPC traffic to drive lead numbers whilst brand recognition is established.

    Radar has sound technical backing, our membership base has grown steadily over the last three years, our SEO is improving daily, our leads are growing, and we aim to help members make the best of their own internet web presence, not just our own. We’ve also got a new design coming for our members, which you can read about/see over on our blog: http://agents.radarhomes.co.uk/blog/

    pete@radarhomes.co.uk.

    • 21 January 2013 11:05 AM
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    Defiantly in, Have emailed you Nick.
    Margaret, I too am doing a lot of head scratching, shame my NFOPP cheque missed the post too. We have been on Radar for nearly 3 years and enquiries are growing.

    • 21 January 2013 11:04 AM
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    Dear Nick

    I would be happy to support. We must make a stand against Rightmove and Zoopla. Where are we going to be in years to come! We have no control over their price hikes as they know we cannot afford to come off the sites(certainly Rightmove in the South East).

    We have just negotiated a discount with the local paper, but I accept that paper advertising will finish at some point(and still represents our biggest outlay). Our fees are being knocked continuously and I feel it is time to fight back. I am just not sure how we go about it!

    • 21 January 2013 11:02 AM
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    Nick is a hugely respected commentator and I for one agree.

    I have many ideas for PropertyLive and believe I know just the people to make it 'different' with a USP that RM doesn't have.

    What is needed is the engagement of members - agents have some superb marketing ideas. This is why the site failed - we were never consulted.

    EW

    • 21 January 2013 10:28 AM
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    I would be happy for my company to join in with the support of Nick's idea but I would like to know how as a non member of naea the red tape/joining criteria would affect us, I have been an estate agent for 28 years but have never wanted to pay to be called a professional and then milked to go on courses!

    • 21 January 2013 10:27 AM
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    To my mind, the simplest, cheapest, AND VERY BEST THING NEEDED TO MAKE PROPERTYLIVE A SUCCESS is to give it the exposure we all gave Rightmove. In our windows, on our stationary, on our websites, everywhere. AND REMOVE THE RIGHTMOVE/ZOOPLA EQUIVALENTS. If Joe Public sees a substancial number of agents doing this, they will inevitably start looking on PropertyLive....

    As estate and letting agents, we have clout. If the public sees us promoting Propertylive, and NOT RM / Z, they will not ignore it no matter how many TV adverts the big portals put out.

    • 21 January 2013 10:23 AM
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    Getting agents to work or pull together?

    Good luck with that old chestnut - We are constantly beating each other out of a living...

    There's only two agents in my town, we charge 1.8% and our 'competitor' charges between 1.0 and 1.25% unfortunately their stupidity is typical of the trade.

    • 21 January 2013 10:18 AM
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    We should all be in.
    The idea to showcase property for an initial period on PL, before RM is excellent, and advertise the fact .... if we all did this and in the meantime reduce our spend to RM to the basic packages perhaps it may have an effect.

    • 21 January 2013 10:05 AM
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    A portal is just few pages with search. Add better back end logic and delay ads to the likes of main portals and you change the strategy and offering.

    There are ways to make a new portal work and generate £millions but not from old models.

    If agents really want to pull together add a mls back end and deals can be done before listings hit the portals. We have agents xoing this weekly.. Were happy to help and have UK technology portals dont want out there.

    The main UK property feed design doesnt allow agents to share property. This was the main reason agents stopped working together. To create a new platform could mean creating a new platform where agents can pay agents fees for selling and letting each others listings. PL could be the front end to that. INEA could help with the back end.

    • 21 January 2013 10:03 AM
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    Margaret:

    Either the decision was very sudden (unlikely)

    or

    The NAEA has made a hash (once again) of informing members.

    However, the President and Managing Director is putting the emphasis on communications.

    Keep watching this empty space. Or move on.

    • 21 January 2013 10:02 AM
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    May I indulge in a repeat of a previous post....

    My view......not conclusive.....

    The MAIN reason that PropertyLive failed was because member estate agents THEMSELVES did not advertise it. As a member over many years my own advertisements, website, details, letterheads, business cards etc. etc. carried the logo. I cannot recall ANY other local member agent doing so - but they PUSHED Rightmove to the extreme!

    If PropertyLive is reformed it would be imperitive to charge a reasonable annual fee and most importantly, to obtain a pre-launch contract and for it to be compulsory for every subscriber to show logo etc. on all advertising, stationery and window displays etc. etc. - just as they did with RM.

    • 21 January 2013 09:59 AM
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    Could not agree more with your standpoint Nick. I do believe that it is probably not quite as simple as it perhaps was with the London Magazine/Primelocation models of old but certainly count us in as partners and possible shareholders if that is the plan.

    The article makes good reading and could work if we all pull together or at least a decent number of agents do. We could help promote the site in our own offices over and above RM and Zoopla and although we are not a particularly large agency we are very happy to help with anything we can.

    Many thanks and keep us posted.

    • 21 January 2013 09:59 AM
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    I don't know what the definitive answer is but I do believe Rightmove will eventually eat itself thanks to its' greed. We are a small agency with an average of a dozen live properties at any time and we are constantly having our rates increased. I could employ another pert-timer on the money Rightmove are soaking us for.

    JT I would like to hear from you as I have a fledgling Niche Portal Idea and no technical expertise.

    I keep meaning to engage with Trevor Mealham at INEA, perhaps this is the prod I needed.

    Jon

    • 21 January 2013 09:54 AM
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    Emphasising how sudden PropertyLive closure decision was, postman just delivered latest copy of The Estate Agent, with printed flyer promoting PropertyLive!

    • 21 January 2013 09:45 AM
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    An agent-owned portal, backed FULLY by the majority of agents, is the only way to protect our individual and collective interests. We (agents) own the property data and WE should control it. Radar Homes offers agents exactly what we need. Any forward-thinking agent should properly investigate not only what Radar has to offer NOW but where it is going. Subscribing to Radar and delaying our feeds to the major portals would be a practical initiative and prove to those "naysayers" who say "we can't do anything about it" and "we've heard it all before but nothing ever happens" that we can and should take responsibility and control of this vital part of our businesses. This is not a cost issue. Who controls the property content controls the power!

    • 21 January 2013 09:42 AM
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    The announcement of sudden closure of PropertyLive was pretty much the last straw for me with regard to membership of NAEA - and I've been a member for 20 years. I am only now holding fire on a definite decision not to renew pending seeing what happens next. I too think this should not be the end of the story for PropertyLive without much more discussion, and involvement of people other than Arbon House peoplle.
    I joined RadarHomes as I like what they are attempting to do and for a modest monthly expenditure I was and am prepared to support it.
    A much wider debate is clearly needed and if this is the best forum, lets get stuck in.

    • 21 January 2013 09:37 AM
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    This is absolutely the line to take and on behalf of Grosvenor Billinghurst, subject to the detail, "I'm in". Surrey EA's have led the way with Property Live already. I can understand the NFOPP wanting to pull away from a commercial operation such as this, they are after all a Professional Association, but their sudden closure announcement does seem precipitous. however, from the ashes a Phoenix could yet rise.

    • 21 January 2013 09:22 AM
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    If Google can be investigated for its abuse of its dominant position, why can't Rightmove?

    Are the OFT and Dept for BIS awake? The consumer end up paying, not us. Wakey wakey 'Government'.

    http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/bulletin/mtenterpriseweekly/article/1166468/eu-throw-ebook-google-search-rankings/

    • 21 January 2013 09:19 AM
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    Yes,

    I don't think there will be a issue with consumers going to the site if we promote to letting applicants coming into the office soon it will start to get noticed and known.

    • 21 January 2013 09:03 AM
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    isn't the BIG problem here that the BIG companies, having made a killing with Rightmove, have a vested interest now in Zoopla...alledgedly having equity interests? shoudn't we all have boycotted Zoopla anyway ?

    this provides the all important critcial mass.

    they won't come away until this has returned a profit... why would they...it's a formula that worked.

    that said, i agree, this is possible. it will take a bit of time AND good managament but with agreeement this can be done. were is Nick Milner these days.....?

    • 21 January 2013 09:02 AM
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    Hi - I'm joint MD of Homeflow...

    We're the company referred to in the comments below as powering Radarhomes. We built the current site, and indeed power a range of portals for other big newspaper groups, magazines, and local associations, as well as build websites for agents.

    Just a few points of observation:

    (1) Building the feeds and liquidity of listings up is NOT easy - as Not an Agent suggested. It takes years of work, talking to agents one by one, and a huge technical effort. We know - as we get over 6000 feeds from 6000 agents round the UK and it's taken over 5 years with some big brands and staffing to build it. Property Live did quite well here, due to the power and trust in the association name.

    (2) However - "Not an agent" - is right that this is only the tip of the iceberg. The next problem is traffic. The three main routes to this are SEO / Pay per Click advertising / then natural traction in your own email alert databases, leading ultimately to direct consumer usage. These are all topics which we have a great deal of experience and success in building up over the last 5 years. We should chat.

    (3) Radarhomes - is growing - especially in the SEO arena. They have engaged us to completely rebuild the site - a process which is now nearing completion - someone must be a member down below, as they are well briefed on this. It's a matter of weeks away from launch now. Watch this space. It is also going to be doing something quite different from the main portals - as well as the base search and listings, it is working closely with agents to integrate into their sites, drive traffic, and leads directly to them, and help agents with their own SEO. It should be interesting.

    (4) We too have approached the NFOPP - and would be keen to work with them, or groups of their members, in any way we can to help them salavage the best opportunity from the good work that was built up.

    (5) And specifically Nick - I think we should have a discussion. As the more we can work together the better. It sounds like you have some good ideas - and we should compare notes, as I'm sure we can build a better product together. I'll drop you a line later today.

    Have a good week everyone!

    • 21 January 2013 08:56 AM
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    Yes that is a very valid point made earlier. If agents are genuinely intersted in getting momentum here, they should use their agencies name to publicly support this, otherwise it will never get taken seriously

    • 21 January 2013 08:50 AM
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    The easy part is getting agents to list their properties on a new site. Getting consumers to come in their masses is VERY hard. That is why PropertyLive closed down.

    • 21 January 2013 08:41 AM
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    Your article made good reading and gives the industry hope if we pull together.

    We are willing to subscribe for shares and to pay a monthly subscription. We are also prepared to have our properties on there for up to a week before RM & Z as we feel this would really help the site.

    We are not a big agency but we have a lot of "know how and can do" and would be happy to help with anything we can.

    lets put our differences aside and act together....

    • 21 January 2013 08:39 AM
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    I was suprised at the decision to close property Live and totally agree with Nick that if there is an opportunity to relaunch it as agent run site for agents we should support it and quickly!

    • 21 January 2013 08:35 AM
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    The only way this is going to get taken serious is if agents stop hiding behind names on here and put their firms name against it.

    If you can't put up then shut up

    • 21 January 2013 08:35 AM
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    I was suprised at the decision to close property Live and totally agree with Nick that if there is an opportunity to relaunch it as agent run site for agents we should support it and quickly!

    • 21 January 2013 08:34 AM
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    Nick,

    You did a great job with SPLINTA & I totally back your idea above.

    The other day you mentioned giving the oafs at NFOPP & NAEA a share in the portal. No way Nick. That's a line I would not cross.

    Those bone-brained b*stards can rot.

    • 21 January 2013 08:30 AM
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    The lack of traction from Radar has nothing to do with anything other than the loyalty the good NAEA members had for Propertylive, and it was only right that NAEA members supported Propertylive, so why would they support something that diluted that focus?
    Good Estate Agents will understand that it is not best practice for a third party to generate all their leads for them and place a reliance on that third party.
    If you look at the work Radar are doing yes they are a portal in the proper sense but the emphasis is focused on Agent ownership of the applicant rather than a constant demand for the applicant to return to the mothership portal. In other words Agents succeed as a result of their own efforts with the individual client or applicant.

    • 21 January 2013 08:29 AM
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    This is a no brainer. We need to bring the NAEA back to their senses. The membership want it, non members would be prepared to join if it meant they could avoid Rightmove.

    Why, oh why, has there been no consultation of the members, particularly the ones who have come off Rightmove and put all they eggs in the Propertylive basket. They have every right, like the rest of the membership, to feel very, very angry nd let down.

    Wake up NAEA.

    • 21 January 2013 08:28 AM
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    Rather than try to revive/re-write a poor bit of coding Nick Salmon ought to be speaking to the Radar Team, their cosmetic overhaul is in the final stages. As "With respect" says the code underneath that and the Techies behind it all really know what they are doing.
    Funny that out of the blue someone should start having a pop at Radar, obviously someone has worked out where the real altenative to the duopoly is going to come from. Radar homes is Agent owned and is not bound up with all the history/ baggage/bad feeling associated with NFoPP.

    • 21 January 2013 08:17 AM
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    @with respect - I understand what you are saying, I was merely pointing out what is being suggested is the same/similar to Radar Homes. If what you say is correct, 500 agents for a portal that was created over three year ago and to date the only marketing I've seen is stickers in windows. Surely this proves it's not an easy task!

    Personally I don't see any problem with Rightmove and Zoopla rates. I remember the days thousands of pounds a month was spent in the local paper (agents continue to do this, even though they know it's not selling houses just keeping vendors happy).

    If RM or ZPG was not value for money over 18,000 agents wouldn't be advertising on them.

    If any new portal (revamped) was going to start now it would take years to create and get anywhere near RM or ZPG.

    • 21 January 2013 08:15 AM
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    Same 'radical' idea posted by someone new about once a quarter, same inevitable outcome every time.

    • 21 January 2013 08:11 AM
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    Lets do it!

    • 21 January 2013 08:02 AM
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    Radar Homes have refrained from making comment about this and the many many many stories where it would be possible to make comment.
    One gets the impression that the good work they are putting in is obviously now seen as a threat to someone simply from the fact someone has seen to post an un-necessary negative comment about them.
    With over 500 shareholder Agents and a technology base that is tried, tested, and far more technologically advanced than ever Propertylive could ever hoped to have achieved, Radar Homes have already built the foundations for the strong Agent based portal that Nick is proposing.
    To use the “leads” argument against Radar is a fairly desperate attempt to discredit the good work they are putting in. However it actually goes to demonstrate that 3knocks lacks an understanding about what an alternative to Rightmove and Zoopla ought to be aiming to do, and why the race for leads was the undoing of Propertylive.
    I have heard their pitch for myself and it makes a lot of sense. With respect leave them out of this discussion and don’t knock them for not doing they are not trying to do just yet.

    • 21 January 2013 07:59 AM
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    Nick you need to team up with Trevor Melham at INEA
    new site and subbing - Perfect just how it used to be.

    • 21 January 2013 07:40 AM
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    youve got our suport

    • 21 January 2013 07:35 AM
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    Yes

    • 21 January 2013 07:23 AM
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    A brilliant idea. Nick is right, and who could possibly be better than him to lead this? This really is the moment for agents to shape their own destiny.

    • 21 January 2013 07:16 AM
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    This vision sounds very similar to how Radarhomes pitch their service and that's been around for a while now. I know of a lot of agents who signed up to Radarhomes and unfortunately are now thinking about leaving due to the leads being poor quality and few and far between. Although the service is cheaper then Zoopla the cost per lead is higher!! At the end of the day we all know it takes a lot of money and resources to build a creditable brand.

    • 21 January 2013 06:49 AM
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    YES!

    Definately! You can count on our support, Nick.

    • 21 January 2013 06:41 AM
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