New requirements are set to tighten up rules on Energy Performance Certificates imminently, EAT has learnt. After we broke the news this morning, Nick Salmon announced that he would revive SPLINTA, the highly successful anti-HIP lobbying group.
Communities and Local Government has issued no press briefings or other information, but has held meetings with EPC providers to discuss the changes, which look set to including having a full EPC on all marketing, including the internet.
However, according to part of the presentation by CLG which we have seen, the changes are due to come into force ‘from April / July 2011’. However, the document does not specify in what order the changes will apply or give actual dates.
The changes will include:
An EPC must be either available or ordered before any property is marketed for sale or rent, and enforcement offices will have powers to check that the EPC has been commissioned.
The full EPC, apparently as opposed to the summary graphs, must be provided when supplying property particulars.
The ‘responsible person’ (usually the agent) must use ‘reasonable efforts’ to ensure that the EPC is available within seven days of the start of marketing, rather than the current 28 days.
The EPC must be attached to all written particulars for marketing purposes.
Finally, the changes make the agent liable to prosecution if the EPC rules are broken.
However, an immediate issue is that if agents have to give immediate web access to the full EPC, there could be data protection issues, since the full EPC will give the full postal address of the property. This would also allow agents more scope to compete for the instruction in the first place.
There are also implications for IT systems and contractual arrangements.
Kristian Wass, a partner in energy firm and EPC provider Tudor Edward and who also owns Hudson Moody estate agents in Leeds, was at the CLG presentation, given by Peter Matthews. He said that it was astonishing that there had been no announcement yet from CLG about the changes, given their impact on agents. He said: "I spoke to Mr Matthews after the presentation and specifically asked whether the full EPC would have to go on internet marketing, and he replied that it would affect 'all marketing'. I think that logically, they have decided that this could not include For Sale or letting boards, and probably not newspaper advertising, but would certainly include the internet. I imagine that this could be achieved by a link through to the full EPC.
"We were told that the changes are coming in largely to tighten up on non-compliance in the commercial sector. In the residential sales sector, we were told that compliance is about 78%, but that it is much lower in the commercial sector - my guess would be 20-25%."
Nick Salmon said this morning: "The requirement to put the full EPC with sales particulars is a ludicrous waste of time and money. It should be perfectly obvious that a low EPC rating against a higher potential rating indicates that improvements to energy efficiency could be made but this only becomes relevant when a purchaser becomes seriously interested in the property. To have a multi-page EPC document attached to a single page of property details is complete overkill and will waste tons of paper, printing ink, administrative time and postage charges.
"If CLG is serious about this ridiculous proposal there is no doubt that SPLINTA will be revived to fight the measure."
Another estate agent told EAT: "Consumers are not interested in EPCS anyway, but if these changes start in April, when were CLG going to bother to inform us? I really don't think they've thought this through."
These important changes affect all agents, whether sales or lettings and whether in the private or commercial sectors. We will, of course, bring you updates as soon as we can.
An excerpt from the presentation detailing these changes can be seen at: www.tudoredward.com/EPC_
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Comments
If a majority of agents flout the law on Data protection and money laundering and no one bothers, who will police this scheme? No one, as EPCs add no value, at least there are reasons for the other requirements.
Why would people be against useful information being provided the EPC is a requirement now anyway, so why not give the purchaser this information before they start the process of buying/renting the property. The general public willl eventually see this as very important and useful piece of info with the cost to fuel bills going through the roof with the lack of insulation and information I think...
Ha ha ha what a joke EPC's are. Long before they came about people would actively improve their property when they could afford it. EPC's has made no differance today. Yes an owner knows they have a solid brick property, yes the boiler should be in a museum and yes you can fall down the stairs from the landing with low energy bulbs. A paper exercise thats looks good buy actually makes very little impact considering the pollution the DEA industry has created as a whole and by the look of it just about to increase it 5 fold!
Where the impact does work is on new properties being built. Not after the horse has bolted beurocracey.
Old properties that only need an EPC have generally a poor response to remedial works advised
There is only one answer Bring back HIPs they were perfect in every way and were loved by everyone. Whoops i ve been drinking all night!!!!!
Johnson - if the DEA you met was so poorly trained, why did you not complain to his accreditation scheme? If the clowns aren't thrown out as a result of being "outed" by you, how will the good DEAs get any work?
Underpaid DEA; I think you are missing the point, all agents know its a neccessity, thats not the debate here.
The debate is the goalposts are being moved again. There will be no one to police this.
I will continue to stick our EPC graph on our details and the tinernet, but as far as printing off the full report and attaching it to details, I wont be doing that.
Looks like the treatment given to EPCs has backfired on us all. If agents hadn't tried to ignore them, hide them and hope they would go away, these daft new rules wouldn't be coming in.
Why can't agents understand that they are a necessity for the EU countries to measure and manage the agreed improvements to their carbon footprints.
They are not supposed to be a selling point but they are supposed to be 'in the open' when a property is sold in the hope that the buyer will carry out the recommendations, take an interest.
Agents who haven't bothered to understand EPCs and their raison d'etre have brought this new stupidity on the industry.
Quite correct (this time) PeeBee. I am not an agent. Just an average Joe who thinks that the idea of an EPC is a good one but that this good idea is being let down by the assessors.
What, if any, training do these guys get that doesn't cover the basics such as how houses are built? Really. My six year old daughter would have been just as well informed. In fact maybe the assessor overheard her standing in the kitchen saying "brrr chilly" and decided to make that the basis of his report.
The EPC must be attached to all paper particulars bit is a complete white elephant. It can not be policed, its not practice and apart from anything else 'I aint doing it' The graph already mucks up the flow of my A3 glossy brochure. I guess I’ll end up in court twice after Realising Reality has found out who I am and tried to add my bank balance to his retirement fund.
Seriously though, with EPC's it is a case of 'ask and you shall receive' The government simply does not want to spend any time and energy educating people about home efficiency and its much easier for them to have us stick it under peoples noses instead.
Chris Holmes:
My understanding is.......
At the INITIAL enquiry (web, office or post - which as we all know could initially be dozens for each property) is for the basic graph to be provided (unless full EPC is actually requested at the time). After that, if matters proceed to an offer to purchase or rent being considered/made, the full EPC could be provided.
Seems clarification is required?
Chris Holmes: "Regarding printing the EPC oiut to provide with particulars simply confirm the interested party has web access and give them the RRN number in the form of a weblink..."
Great idea, Chris - and one which I would have imagined savvy Agents are already using. Unfortunately the following is the offending excerpt from the CLG update sheet, the URL to which is at the bottom of the story...: "EPC to be attached to written particulars for marketing all properties - not just rating;"
Kinda blows the idea out of the water, I am afraid...
SGHI: "As for the comments on "uneducated clowns", get real!...there are as many uneducated clowns in your game, the only true professionals in your sector are Chartered Surveyors who run an agency. The rest of you are sales people, in fact telesales mainly, who wouldn't know a wall from a roof."
May I respectfully suggest that your rantlet at Estate Agents (of which I am not one...) may well be more than a tad misdirected.
I would be most surprised if 'Johnson', who made the comment, is indeed an Agent.
Children, children, children all thoe rattles being thrown out of your prams!
Forget your childish jibes at each other and the system and think positively.
Legsilation is already in place which states that for rental property the EPC must be made available to prospective tenants etc; at the earliest opportunity and this is defined as the time when someone requests details, so in the strict ruling NO EPC = NO ISSUE of details (legally) For sales it is different as the EPC just has to have been comissioned and there are up to 28 days to actually get it in place.
Regarding printing the EPC oiut to provide with particulars simply confirm the interested party has web access and give them the RRN number in the form of a weblink, all reputable DEAs can provide this for you, and you have fulfilled your obligation of providing the EPC.
There is of course that wonderful piece of EPC legislation that makes it a criminal offebce to provide an EPC documnet or its RRN number to anyone who is not actually involved in the sale / purcahse of the property therefore are the government saying that asking for property details is "involving" you in the process?
Aside from this "visible" stuff then there are changes taking place for DEAs regarding the data gathered and the way in which it can be enetered into the EPC software which will make the ratings more accurate. Currently only 2 extensions can be catered for but from 17th April this increase to 4 plus numerous other improvements and Star ratings as opposed to poor, good, very good, excellent gradings.
As a final point why do the most verbose and contentious people here use their real names, why hdie behind a pseudonym?
@SGHI
Assume you must be involved directly in EPC's
Any knowledgeable person knows that an EPC is a EU requirement, therefore unless we leave the EU we must comply. The debate is about the sensible and practical way in which the information is made available.
How long have you been in a glass house - must be a long time! ;0)
Oh dear oh dear oh dear!!!!
Wake up the lot of you!...this is the embryonic stages of much much more to come. I have dealt with a number of Agents over the past 3 years all have dumped their expensive vehicles in favour of Citroen C1's, Smart Cars and a general range of small hatchbacks...this means to me RUNNING COSTS are being seriously viewed for reduction. Whilst Agents may like to feel they are above the rest of us mere mortals, it's all front and no substance as behind the scenes they are just as concerned about costs.
I'm no tree hugger as Scientific argument about climate change seems to be in balance regarding the issue of manmade or cyclical, if everyone acted on reducing energy consumption and SAVING MONEY carbon emissions would be reduced.
The worst offenders are public building operators, having surveyed 200+ I am now no longer surprised by attitudes encountered...the majority just don't give a damn and will gladly leave lights burning and heating plant operating well past occupancy hours...this is tax payers money going to waste.
Council tax will surely be linked to the energy rating of property just as road tax is to vehicle emissions.
So why not embrace it as one client Agent has and market on the performance rather than just talking about tastefully decorated crap!...it might just give you an edge over your competitors!?
It's got to be better than wasting energy trying different ways to spell your name i.e. Steev, Nyck, Sharlot etc.
As for the comments on "uneducated clowns", get real!...there are as many uneducated clowns in your game, the only true professionals in your sector are Chartered Surveyors who run an agency. The rest of you are sales people, in fact telesales mainly, who wouldn't know a wall from a roof.
Link Detached, Chalet style house...what a load of b&ll&cks there's no such thing, it's either detached or a bungalow with rooms in the roof.
Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
"PeeBrain"
Okay - so on the basis that you have never met me, THAT makes you a condescending young f@rt!.
I overlooked that the first time. Two strikes and you are out in my game.
You describe a section of a conversation with ONE solitary DEA, yet you erect a fence around the whole profession and barricade them all in there together like sheep to the slaughter.
No matter how many individuals like you I come across, I don't despair for the rest of the human race...
Want to continue this or will you simply slink away licking your wounds whilst you still have a tongue?
Well said Jules...and all this excrement from a Government that said it wanted to cut red tape. Gideon stood at the despatch box on Wednesday & squeeked that he wanted to cut regulations & inteference. Pathetic.
@Jules
Nero was actually 200 miles away at the time of the fire in which he is accused of fiddling during. Also, fiddles did not even exist at the time.
PeeBrain
No. I've met these people face to face and they are most definitely uneducated clowns.
This chap came to my house, took a sharp intake of breath when he saw my tiled kitchen floor, "oh, tiles, that'll be cold." No matter that there's 4 inches of insulation and under floor heating. He then proceeded to probe me about cavity wall insulation. "Do you have any?" "No, they are solid walls" "You could get some put in" "Some what?" "Cavity insulation" "No, like I said, they are solid walls you frikking clown"
There's an element of Nero fiddling while Rome burns here.
EPC's are nonsense. A complete waste of time & money. No one's ever found them remotely interesting or relevant. I'd like the government to f*ck off and leave me to run my business the way I want.
Johnson: "The only let down with EPC's are the uneducated clowns who conduct the "survey". They really damage the credibility of the whole scheme."
That statement must royally qualify you as a "condescending YOUNG f@rt", does it?
Blimey,
That fascinating subject of EPC’s has graced us with its presence again, best we brace ourselves for the inspirational and colourful characters from the EPC world to bore us into an early Friday pint………………..
Anyway, im going off the point so ill try and get back to it with the following;
1. EPC’s are here to stay, they are as easy for the industry to lay their hands on as trying to find your own buttocks with both hands tied behind your back.
2. Luckily as the EPC industry had a big old fisty cuffs session on price where everyone lost they are cheap
3. Agents’ just order them and stick em on the marketing stuff without moaning
4. The customers DON’T look at them
5. The graph bit is the only bit worth looking at, in the rare situation that someone is interested enough
6. Buyers will put the EPC rating so far down on the list of things they consider when choosing a new home its down there with the acidity of the soil in the garden (although I had someone ask me that once but told him I didn’t know as I hadn’t tasted it)
So there are the main bits and I think most EA’s will be with me? However the bit that won’t work / is red tape at its worst is bunging the whole thing in – all 5 or whatever it is pages – its there for the 1 in a million buyers that might want it – like that anonymous plonker below telling us to shut up and do what we are told (you want to have a look sir / madam, you can, ill email or post it to you / ask my negotiator shove it up you CO2 outlet for you, no problem)
But some sense is needed, such as when choosing / taxing a car – you get the emissions per kilometre and the MPG, that’s enough to make a choice, you don’t need the full test the car maker did, just the meat and potatoes of it.
Okay, I think ive got there – give the consumer the main bit and the rest is there if they need it – now hands up who’s going to want to recommend their client takes an offer / agrees to sell to a buyer who’s obsessed by the finite detail of a report done by and ex painter and decorator for £20??
Jonnie
This is ludicrous, it makes me want to scream!! I agree with EPC's, they are making people consider efficiency but then all us agents will undo all that good by killing 2 rainforests a year printing the full EPC. JUST RIDICULOUS WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TALK TO AGENTS BEFORE THEY CONSIDER THESE SORTS OF THINGS.......IDIOTS!!!
I think you will find that if you ignore something, or someone, for long enough it will eventually disappear. There might be some whining and stomping in the meantime, but that will soon become a distatnt memory.
NIce one PeeBrain
So they make a couple of typos and miss a bit of punctuation. Big deal. You condescending old fart.
"You agent should just do as your told and stop moaning, think about your customers for a change"
I not agent; I customers. What you have to say to me?
Who you referring to as "customers"?
Why I typing this in pidgeon b011ock$ like you?
@PeeBee.
Couldn't have put it better myself!
Do any of these people at CLG understand the basic procedures when marketing and selling a property?
In my view all that is needed, remembering that the provision of EPC's is an EU Directive and is the law, (whereas HIP's were not) is that at the INITIAL enquiry (web, office or post - which as we all know could initially be dozens for each property) is for the basic graph to be provided. After that, if matters proceed to an offer to purchase or rent being considered/made, the full EPC could be provided. Whether this should be compulsory is debateable but any more legislation is surely not required
Where are RICS, NAEA, ARLA, on this?
People in all walks of life are generally resistant to change but this is happening Europe wide so why keep moaning?
In my opinion EPC's are a good idea and will become increasingly important over the years as energy prices continue to rise. 2013 will be a big watershed moment with massive increases in carbon tax.
The only let down with EPC's are the uneducated clowns who conduct the "survey". They really damage the credibility of the whole scheme.
You agent should just do as your told and stop moaning, think about your customers for a change
People buy properties for many reasons but energy efficiency isn't one of them, unless one house has double glazing and next door hasn't, most people will go with the one that has.
Generally, though, the old adage of location, location, location are the three deciding factors, and an agent saying: "Ah, but look at the graph on this one" is never going to clinch a sale.
The number of clients who have requested to see an EPC are 2 possibly 3. Buyers are not interested. I agree with previous comments that this will be a total waste of time, money, paper, postage and energy. This is a crazy idea.and Grant Schapps
I am going into the paper supply business - quote anyone!?????
It is the recommendations page of the EPC which will enable buyers to look at what is required to make the property more energy efficient, this will give them an idea of costs involved in improving the energy efficiency of the house and potential savings on bills and could form part of the negotiation. This is the most important aspect of an EPC not just the front page!
So...
In order to "reduce the carbon footprint of a property", firstly a guy (or guyess...) based three gallons of fuel away has to turn up in a Transit or L200, carry out a quick inspection of a property in order to stick a few possibly accurateish bits of info into a computer which spews out on screen a pretty graph and a set of recommendations that will cost the owner or prospective owner a years salary to implement in order to save twenty quid a year.
THEN, in order to show these savings to potential buyers, tenants, AND the Council Tax Office (trust me - it is going that way...), the Agent has to print off a ream of paper's worth of these reports to give away to people who, apart from MAYBE ONE, will not give a shizzle or act upon the information.
AH - you say - photocopier paper is from 'sustainable sources'. Let's print off say 50 copies (six sheets) per property, times a million-and-a-bit marketed for sale and a million-or-so marketed to let every year, and see how 'sustainable' those sources are, shall we? NOT TO MENTION the fossil fuels we will burn with the additional electricity to power the printer and the lights (low energy, of course...) in the photocopier cupboard!
AT WHAT POINT does the world either blow up, or shrivel into the size of a walnut, with all the strain we are adding to it and its' resources?
All we are doing here is sucking it dry faster than ever before ...
EPCs exist to encourage potential buyers to consider energy efficiency as one of the factors when looking at properties. Perhaps if agents had simply adopted a sensible approach and encouraged clients to think about location, number of bedrooms etc, AND energy efficiency DCLG would not need to be imposing rules now? The 7 day rule for example is only a response to the 28 day rule being abused.
This announcement is no sudden surprise. It is part of a consultation process that has been going on since December and has involved a wide range of stakeholders, not just EPC providers as implied.
It also seems that the initial changes will be published in April and implemented in July so I am not sure where the apparent confusion is coming from.
EPBD2 is happening and awareness of the energy impact of buildings has to rise. What would be helpful for everyone is if we could all accept it and work together to make it happen efficiently rather than SPLINTA groups trying to de-rail parts of what overall is a valuable process.
The comment attributed to Nick Salmon appears to miss the point. If the energy efficiency becomes more important to more people (as it is when they go in to a shop to buy white goods) owners will be encouraged to make the improvements to advertise a better property to get more money for it. It is hiding the EPC until later and pretending it is not important that is stopping energy saving improvements from happening.
I had to read this Report twice and check that it isn't April 1st before realising that it might actually be true! Come on, Grant Shapps, don't let the CLG saddle us with even more unnecessary red tape.
I agree with the other posts....a complete waste of time, energy, postage and paper. Pity the poor trees!!
The EPC graph remains a complete mystery to most people and has absolutely no bearing on whether somebody buys a particular property or not. I cannot think of one benefit in proceeding with this claptrap.
I have my chequebook and pen ready if Nick Salmon is prepared to revive SPLINTA in order to fight against this ludicrous piece of nonsense.
I am still hoping that it might be an April Fool's Joke that has been leaked early. If so, well done to the joker...you've certainly stirred things up. If not, Lord help us all....here we go again!!
Madness. Madness. They call it madness.
Seems a bit OTT to have to staple the entire 6 page EPC to our property details, when the front page provides the pertinant information.
All seem rather a waste of paper, so watch out rainforests, saving the planet seems to have gone on the backburner!
The comments on timescales and when the EPC has to be available continue to bemuse me as my understanding is that it has always been the case that the EPC had to be available for any discussion or conversation on a property, even arranging the viewing never mind doing it. When and where did 7 and 28 days ever come in - I must double check.
Meanwhile only 2 tenants requesting one? I assume you mean existing tenants as all new ones must be given a copy at the very latest at check-in but more likely as I say earlier
Such a waste of time
Ever since this come out, we've had 2! Just 2 tenants request a copy of this poxy epc rubbish!! Most people don't even know what it's all about
As a letting agents, it just makes our life even more difficult having to chase a landlord for one of these. Very annoying the whole process
Will that be the same enforcement officers who were supposed to check that a Hip had been ordered etc?