Private landlord service listing on Rightmove "an issue"

Chris: With all due respect, you may have entered the property industry in 1996, but you did not 'cut your teeth' as you put it for a further ten or so years! In '96, the market was steady away, and by 2000 any numpty could 'sell' a house. Only since 2007 have those in the industry needed to truly sell their wares - hence the huge numbers that have left for seemingly greener grass in other fields.
Those of you who believe that 'traditional' Agents have limited lifespans really need to give your heads a shake. Reputation and track record/current performance are two of the strongest influencers on sellers' choices of Agent. Also, we are reliably informed that the average buyer age is rising, and older prospects have a more 'traditional' outlook on the market. The internet is a great place to display your products - but that is simply what it is - another shop window for someone to look at.

In difficult times such as now (and I can tell you there have not been more difficult times in over 30 years...), putting into practice past experience will ensure the dinosaurs not only survive - but thrive. And so they should. They have proved their worthiness in bad times as well as good.

• 24 August 2010 11:59 AM

In the late 90's before Rightmove and the internet, Estate Agents were defined by their ability to run a database of buyers/ tenants and put them in touch with property that suited their needs. I cut my teeth in 1996 and remember these days well. The internet has changed all that and while experienced estate agents do all they can to defend the old industry, those days have gone and clients will search the Internet to find what they want. Vendors and Landlords simply want decent sales and decent tenants and if they find this service from online Estate Agents, the writing is on the wall for a large number of traditional agents! It's sad, but they must modernise or die. I now own a hybrid Estate Agency. One that operates with a traditional style glass office added to the side of our home on the high street of a large village. Overheads are lower as we took out a mortgage to extend rather than rent somewhere, but the service and office style setting remains similar to the traditional Agency of the 90's. Best of both worlds. We go out and list every property ourselves mind and feel that these email only agents lower the overall quality and customer experience, but they do show another evolutionary step in the industry, knocking a further nail in the traditional style agency coffin!

• 24 August 2010 01:59 AM

What is interesting here is that some agents clearly don't understand their own market.

You have a position within the market - manage properties and look after landlords that require your services, many do! Think of the pletora of accidental landlords - they have no interest in looking after their property.

However, landlords that have to, by law, run as a business should not be forced over a barrel into using agents to advertise their properties on Rightmove. And more to the point to be charged a quite hideous 'finders fee' whilst doing so.

Everything has it's place so just open your eyes and see it. People still buy daily papers because they want something tangible rather than just reading online or watching TV.

If landlords want your service, they'll use it and if not, well here's another opportunity for them and potentially it means you get to deal with people that actually want to do business with you!

• 23 August 2010 10:17 AM

RMove allow my property sales to advertise on their site and there are NOT Estate Agents. From their site

Do you have a property to sell?
We ARE NOT estate agents, you can advertise your property on this website and hundreds more from just £139, when you sell you pay NO COMMISSION,

My R Move account manager in Scotland told me that as long as you visit their house you are classed as an Estate Agent

• 22 August 2010 15:17 PM

WOW, just had a look at upads services, they charge BIGGG MONEY!!!

• 21 August 2010 10:30 AM

All depends, as we are an agents in East London & give the option to the landlord either we can just find the tenant and landlord manages and for this we only charge 2 weeks rent or if manage then 10%

I know all the big agents charge more and never find tenants, I have beaten the big boys many times, but people go there because they are a big name, doesnt mean nothing.

• 21 August 2010 10:27 AM

Good to see a post from a different angle which is highly relevant from the other side.

Too often agents only see things from their own perspective. "I list this way because that suits me". You are not there to suit you, you are there to suit people like 'landlord'.

I know it is an industry forum, but, clients do form part (the largest) of that industry.

• 21 August 2010 08:11 AM

I'm a landlord and investor and visit this site every now and again. I'm a bit perplexed by some of these comments and wonder if letting agents really understand what landlords like me need and want. I have a sizable portfolio and use various agents dependant on the type of property, the tenants and where the properties are located. I do have properties managed for me but I also use agents on a tenant find only basis and I have never been refused this service.

I use rightmove to find properties and do my research, I also get an idea of the local agents I may want to use as I want my properties on it.

I myself can get my properties on gumtree and google directly not a problem. I can't on Rightmove! I have to use an agent but it seems here I'm told letting agents don't and can't offer me a tenant find sevice, What tosh!

Agents charge me for the service (i certainly won't pay £1000 as someone mentions!) you also talk here of supporting free sites, well thanks a lot! What am I paying you for then?

As for dodgy private landlords yes I know there are a few but I'm not one of them. Who's policing shoddy agents though? I've certainly dealt with a few, even here I see stories about them. regards the professionals even I know that descriptions for lettings properties are not covered by the PMA! and all viewings must be accompanied by estate and letting agents.... really?

If I need tenant find services and you don't and can't offer that then no problem many agents do, they can have my fully managed properties too, no issue!

• 20 August 2010 21:02 PM

N1, I appreciate your furstrations what with having to contend with the likes of Foxtons coming into your patch, but why is what UPAD do illegal? I can't think of laws they might be breaking. Surely they are just providing a platform for landlords to have access to the wider public through known marketing websites (as well as their own). Why is it illegal? I know that House Network for example, have properties throughout the UK. And lots of them. Surely they do not have an agent based in every town where they have their 2500 Rightmove listed properties. That would seem, well, a tad impossible. They also make the appointment and chase for feedback and progress the sale, and pretty much everything a regular agent would do bar the viewing. Are they illegal too? Their website says they are actually an NAEA agent, so my guess is they are pretty reputable.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

• 20 August 2010 18:24 PM

Screw the rules let's just do whatever we like to make money. Who gives a **** right?

That seems to be the response to agents desperately trying to act professionally within the guidelines.

And yes perhaps in the end landlords will return to the good agents due to better service, but will many agents be able to survive long enough for that to happen?

• 20 August 2010 17:07 PM

also what if UPAD take an advert out in a local or nation paper would you all expect reductions or them to not be allowed there?

• 20 August 2010 16:51 PM

Why is this all about Rightmove they are on all the other major portals too!!!! and when it is why do the numpties always pop up shouting about there great sites which have no traffic - rant over. As for the its ILLEGAL - just lol under what law - there may be some sort of comeback on some stuff on resale under TEA and PMA but not in rental market

• 20 August 2010 16:43 PM

I have used upads they arranged a viewing for a property in Nottingham, they also arranged for a very professional inventory of the property.

So as far as I can see they have it covered

• 20 August 2010 16:33 PM

"For those that thought of this idea years ago. What stopped you?"

I think that the whole point is that all of us can do what Upad are doing but we have agreed to Rightmove terms of business. Those terms directly conflict with the Upad model.

Essentially it is like saying why not boost your earnings by getting more pimps and weed factories in let properties?
After all that would make money for landlords and agents and it is a novel idea, innovative etc.

Is it a breach of the agreement we have with landlords?

Erm yes, and not great service either.

We are all trying to adhere to the rules and play fair. We are merely saying why are we all playing by the rules whilst these companies seem to have ignored them and got away with it?

Perhaps I will start selling kitchen appliances through Rightmove, I can upload pictures of washing machines and the like with the collection address instead of a property address. It is after all forward thinking and innovative right?
Tenants need cheap washing machines so it is a great service.

We pay a good chunk of cash to RM and we follow their rules. They should keep up their side of the terms of agreement.

If they do not then yes every agent will follow the Upad model (in some form) and we will all suffer from the repercussions. The cheapest lowest criminal firms will survive and the market will become a minefield for tenants and landlords.

Is that really a win?

• 20 August 2010 16:31 PM

rightmove confrimed 2 months ago that anyone who advertises a property and doesnt have a representative within that area is not aloowed to market, i.e cant market birmingham properties from London without proving that you can offically conduct a viewing as its against thier own rules to provide tenants details under data protection.
If rightmove are charging and making money from this i think a boycott should be planned as its affecting buisness and going against thier own t&C's.
In regards to offering that service and under cutting Upad, 2 wrongs dont make a right and my 10 years within this industry has been worthless. i might asweel become an admin assistant and forget calling myself an estate agent. My reputation within the local area is first class and have, whilst other agents i.e foxtons destroy the market with aggressive tactics and crap negotiators done very well but with all this fraudulent activity with rightmove means buisness growth will go the other way and might end up closing if buisness growth does not keep going forward.
During recession gumtree become a haven for landlords and still is but to be able to use what we would call our tools of the industry is bang out of order unless reasonable fee's and rightmoves cost are reduced to compesate a fee of £39 per property.

In response to james i thought of this years ago and once i had looked into it and realised it is completley illegal i decided not too and was only brought to my attention by a landlord who maketed his properties through a company called urban sales and lettings recently. IT IS ILLEGAL AS I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY RIGHTMOVE AND FINDAPROPERTY AND IF NOTHING IS DONE IT WILL SPRIAL OUT OF CONTROL!!

• 20 August 2010 16:18 PM

Yes suggest to rightmove that they can restrict agents to only dealing with properties within a certain radius of their office - MADNESS

THE LARGE MULTI OFFICE AGENTS WOULD LOVE THAT !

A single office agent should be allowed to work hard and take on properties in his/her city perhaps villages also....then Rightmove say you can only advertise properties in a certain post code !

Small agents beware, as a business man for over 30 years you are potentially allowing rightmove to govern your letting business by pressurising them to set a ruling on patches...its not their fault its you lot sitting their not willing to adapt and take the opportunites out their.

• 20 August 2010 15:56 PM

Now we learn that rightmove charge UPADS for each advert out of their branch area...seems fair

I wonder how many agents out their let and manage property out of their branch area

YES ring up rightmove and say you will only let and manange property within a certain radius of your office ! !

UPAD are paying for their listings because they are high profile....what about you should you own up and ask rightmove to charge you more on the same pricing formula.

• 20 August 2010 15:32 PM

Upad only having one (residential) branch is highly relevant. Rightmove charge agents per branch, yet UPAD's one residential branch covers all of the UK. Even if rightmove make them pay a premium because of this, it still would appear to be extremely unfair to all the other multiple branch agencies that are paying huge fees to rightmove. UPAD is hardly innovative, their business model relies entirely on charging the lowest possible fee to get a listing on to rightmove (and others). Without Rightmove they are nothing. Good on them for getting away with it for this long, but how much longer can rightmove really tolerate it with such resentment amongst their core agency customers? If rightmove are suggesting that it is perfectly acceptable to have a single branch that covers the entirity of the UK, then I suggest that other agents follow suit and demand similar 'single branch' fee arrangements from rightmove.

• 20 August 2010 15:12 PM

Get Profile James (a different one)

Well said you, I am not an agent but have run my own business for many year.

FACT -All agents on rightmove are registered agents

FACT - Many agents contract out services; inventories viewings etc

FACT - Many agents use the internet

FACT - Many agents have always offered a Tenant Find Service

FACT - Good Agents offering a range of services, good service levels, at competive prices will prevail

Agents who sit there waiting for the end of the recession will suffer or loose their business

Guess what same for all business

AGENTS use the internet , use pricing, break down your services , capitalise on your advertising skills.

Reply to this comment

• 20 August 2010 14:59 PM

Oh, just one more thing to add. I don't think cheap or free necessarily means weirdos and rapists. I have found many throughly decent landlords using Gumtree in the past. The general perception was that none of them would use an agent as the fees and the work involved were particularly equal. I'm sure agents will disagree, however lots of LL's on Gumtree are all advertising on the site for the same reason.

• 20 August 2010 14:47 PM

Glad you like the new posting Ray!

• 20 August 2010 14:45 PM

Geoff,
I agree, but who stops what?
(please see my previous post)

• 20 August 2010 14:23 PM

Woaaahh! Yet again this type of article opens a can of worms!

Why is anyone worried. If the service eventually is rubbish, then why are agents worried? Their clients will surely come running back.

However if their service is good, then agents should realise the competition for the future is web-based. Landlords (or at least a specific segment of the market) will eventually realise there are alternative options and ones that cost much less than traditional agents.

The remarks made about UPAD trading from a residential address are flippant in the extreme. Does having a flashy office mean you give a better service? Utter twaddle. I never have popped into Amazon's or Ocado's office's yet, however strangly find myself continually usuing their fantastic office based services. Sorry, they are web based aren't they?

For those that thought of this idea years ago. What stopped you? If you could have sewed up the market, you really should have acted on that impulse. You might well have been a market leader now.

Good luck to UPAD for at least doing something different. Every industry needs innovation. If Agents have an issue with Rightmove, then they should complain in numbers, however the fact that Rightmove appear to be letting on these agents (and UPAD is not alone here, as I can think of at least 4 others with a similar business model) then just maybe they too think the future, however far away it may be, is on-line

• 20 August 2010 14:20 PM

N1 AGENT

Advertising is one of the services an agent provides, the internet threatens this even eventually rightmove, just look at the downfall of property newspaper advertising. Agents should use their advertising power to pull in advertising revenue as part of their business. I am an older landlord, old school and understands it hurts when market conditions change so threatening or underminning established business practice. You seem to be a good agent so why not fine tune your business to pull in new clients introducing a low cost entrance to your services then sell them the rest of your services. Respond to the market. Other business are having to move quickly to respond to the internet. You thought up the idea, utilise it now against UPAD Offer a tenant find locally beat upad

• 20 August 2010 14:17 PM

Surely this is a conflict of interest to Rightmoves existing members and can not continue. I massively support free enterprise and wish to see things shaken up, there will be casulties, accidents and harm to the consumer, progress always costs. Bottom line, its a conflict and the Rightmove fee payers are getting shafted and they have to stop it.

• 20 August 2010 13:46 PM

raydon,
we cannot ring fence the industry but we sure can protect our assests and the fact that we pay for rightmove and you have to be an AGENT to get on the site its downright disgusting that landlords can get on there for £39 quid. Go on Gumtree cos it works well in London and be happy but if you want to get on rightmove then you go through an estate agents who will actually provide a service and protect prospective tenants!
Mickey mouse agents in my area have started doing 1-2 weeks rent which is destroying the market and we lose a lot of instructions because of this but they always come running back in the end cos these cheaps agents are poor and dont provide the level of service we do and achieve the rent we can with professional tenants. With capital gains going up soon and the country dropping back into a recession all these landlords will be looking at new ways to keep costs down and without new properties each year buisness's dont grow and we are left with the same stock from previous or even losing some and thats not on!! As i said previously i came up with upads idea 3 years ago and with the amount of landlords i know i could have sown up the whole market nad even tho these landlords are professionals and dont mind paying the fee's if i offered them this service they will be jumping over fences to get there, they just dont know about this available service because they are more than happy to deal with me.

• 20 August 2010 13:26 PM

N1 Agent
Yes I can see your point, but different landlords want differnet levels of service...you deal with top end landlords or landlords who live away from their property they need your services. But some landlords dont need your fuller services, and they will find other ways to advertise and self manage. This has always been the case. It seems to me that all UPADS are doing is trying to get a slice from the type of landlord who would not consider using a more expensive service. Agents cannot ring fence or control the landlord market, GUMTREE has 1000's of landlords on it's books. I can tell you are an experienced agent...do you fear a new agent in your area who doesnt have your experience or infrastructure and reputation...no you don't you will smile slightly think been there done it. Yes exactly lots of £39 dealing with student property...landlords who pay low commissions...hard work low profit. It's not worth your while offering property advertising in N1 because it's not worth to you....well thats your decision and cannot blame you,

• 20 August 2010 13:08 PM

raydon
I dont think you understand the industry and the effect agents like this have on your reputable high street agents who spend grands a month on marketing and local presence with offices costing thousand a year. to earn £39 from a property which should be generating a fee of a £1000 min just does not add up and if this practice becomes more common and allowed then we might as well shut down all offices and sit at home behind computers struggling to earn a living.
i completely agree with howards comments and wierdos and scammers will be able to do more damaage now then just through gumtree where you usually find the nutters!!!

• 20 August 2010 12:54 PM

Just to be clear about my earlier post I am not the James Davis in the article. I am a practising estate agent. :-)

• 20 August 2010 12:54 PM

Viewings carried out by competant contractors...registered inventory companies and epc inspectors using their manpower to do viewings.....there are some terrible small high street agents who employ unvetted low grade viewings staff

• 20 August 2010 12:27 PM

Private landlords are your clients, free internet advertising is the real threat when google maps and other powerful free sites take hold they will put a serious hole in your potential client list.
UPADS and the like are kicking into the internet free sites agents need to advertise a low tenant find product locally so landlords dont go to gumtree..googlemaps...etc

• 20 August 2010 12:23 PM

Ben,

This is not modernisation, it is quite simply a breach of the property mis-descriptions act and also a great way for weirdo's and rapists to get unaccompanied victim's sent to their door.

You see that as 'modernisation' whilst I see it as a worrying development. It is not about added customer service but about cost cutting at the clients expense.

• 20 August 2010 12:20 PM

Yes - Rightmove is the best site at the moment but independant agents have NO control over what it does or does not do, and never will have.
Remember who owns it.
By all means stay on RM BUT vigorously support another site as an alternative, one which will always be in your own control. In time that site will provide competition. The one currently available? PropertyLive!
It is FREE, but even if it eventually has to charge a fee, NFoPP members should fully ADVERTISE it, as they do RM, to support it.

• 20 August 2010 12:10 PM

The internet is here, and so is a recession agents who do not modernise their services cannot just sit there complaining about another letting agent investining time and money to compete. Rightmove is just a way of advertising not a rule book for the industry, in my experience online viewing, inventories, and other letting services are a higher calibre...why...it is the well organised...well funded letting business' that get a market lead online.

There is nothing to stop a high street agent offering a tenant find only service...so just get on with it and undercut upads on a local basis. Stop blaming the portals and concentrate on your own business shortfalls

• 20 August 2010 12:05 PM

Ok, so the market is shifting and there is such a thing as an online estate agency. However, in the case of Upad, they are just a listing site and offer no real added value as a true online agency should. For example: 1) They use a call centre in India to take their tenant enquiries. 2)Then, they just dish out landlord telephone numbers without registering the tenants details(how could they possibly be "matching" tenant to landlords?) 3) They send through tenant details to landlords without the tenants authorisation - this breeches data protection.
James claims to be a landlord - big deal. What experience does he, or his company made up of fake "Directors and Executive Posers" know about the industry?

• 20 August 2010 12:04 PM

This stinks. The portals have got to get on top of this.

Housenetwork.co.uk is another example. The portals are biting the cliche that feeds them.

Where does M*l*s Shitshite stand on this?

• 20 August 2010 12:04 PM

My findaproperty agent told me that all viewings must be accompanied by a negotiator. With this also in mind there is no way Upad are doing the viewings themselves.

This means they are encouraging people to meet at the homes of completely non-vetted random strangers whom may or may not even be genuine landlords. If this ends in a physical assault or other crime will they hold their hands up to causing it?

• 20 August 2010 11:23 AM

Anyone up for scheduling a protest day where we all bombard Rightmove with query calls about whether they have dropped rules about having to visit a property to of satisfied the property mis-description act in relation to listing with them?

Upad (and others) obviously do not drive around the country validating what landlords tell them!

• 20 August 2010 11:20 AM

RightMove are at it. They allow companies that offer advertising only with no estate agency service to advertise and when we try and lauch a new brand we need to jump through hoops. If I did not need them I would tell them to stick it...They are a total rip off.

• 20 August 2010 11:05 AM

Upad is nothing more than a fake estate agency run out of a back bedroom. Don't believe me? Check out their head office at 104 Tennyson Road, London, NW67SB on Google streetview.

• 20 August 2010 10:53 AM

james, you are right.

Perhaps if enough people use RIGHTMOVE, then the fees we feel obliged to pay can come down to a more reasonable level. For me, marketing on the best portal is more important than worrying about the competition. Well, that comment definitely applies to Sales. Lettings i'm not yet in, however I soon will be. I do not object to healthy competition. I do object to leaflet dropping competitors houses when you see the board etc and similar tacky practices.

• 20 August 2010 10:50 AM

hey Jules!
Isthat the real Ralph Be
nding Jules?
The same Jules from Gastonbury who famously got kicked off rightmove!!!
Maybe in your small town rightmove is not required but in London its a major website and generates a lot of enquiries. We are not afraid of Rightmove but of these rouge so called agents destroying the market and allowing dodgy private landlords access to these sites. We wont deal with bad landlords or market thier properties and this is just open the floodgates for more problems then what the industry already has!

• 20 August 2010 10:41 AM

There are plenty of other portals that are starting to gather momentum, we should look to boycott these sites

• 20 August 2010 10:36 AM

I had this idea whilst working for a large London agent around 3 years ago and was put off by legalitites and the complete breach of rightmove rules.
There is another company out there, who i wont name, doing exactly the same and as a result we are seeing a significant drop in instructions and asking prices around our area. I spoke with rightmove and findaproperty about the mentioned company 2 months ago and was told that as long as the company could prove they had a representative in that part of the county then its not illegal and that they would look into it..... think i heard anything back??
How ever much rightmove and findaproperty are good for marketing they are terrible on policing thier website with agents getting away with the above and also leaving unavailable properties on the sites, if its rented get it off, its not hard!!!
What these agents Are doing will turn the whole industry on its head, there will be no need for agents unless and like us you deal with big investors who require thier portofilio to be fully managed, Let only properties will be a thing of the past if this is not dealt with and that means alot of agents off the high street. We pay darn good money for these marketing protals and i think some of that should go into the policing and protection of good agents like ourselves who never market a property unless its available and require fee's of 8% + to cover our monthly costs and our good negotiators wages.

• 20 August 2010 10:24 AM

Baaaaa.
Why are agents so frightened of Rightmove?
I was banned from their site a couple of years ago and am making more money than ever.
Palmer Snell, one of the 6 agents in my small west country town - less than 2000 houses - has just closed.
Rightmove didn't help them.

• 20 August 2010 10:16 AM

why dont you all just stop using rightmove then...... that would hit them where it hurts!

• 20 August 2010 10:15 AM

The slow drip drip of new "private" style entries onto Rightmove is relentless. Rightmove has such a strong presence with the house buying and renting public now that even if they allow private landlords and sellers to list directly or via private sites on mass, mainstream agents would still not dare come off for fear of losing face with potential clients. We should all wake up to this, and accept it. Of course we can spend time worrying about things like this, or use the time making our own businesses stronger in the eyes of the public.

• 20 August 2010 10:01 AM

These firms do breach the rules for Rightmove and Findaproeprty. It is stated that an agent must visit a property before it is advertised. No way is Upad sending someone to Devon or Glasgow to validate details at a fee of just £39.

It is up to us agents to make complaints to portals about these firms.

• 20 August 2010 10:01 AM

Well James does not stand alone, there are now quite a few who offer the same service on Rightmove. James has been advertising on there for ages. Why are we suddenly highlighting James?

• 20 August 2010 08:56 AM