Both Rightmove and Zoopla were asked by EAT whether the change to the Estate Agents Act will affect their business models and/or property listings.
We also asked whether they would accept listings from ‘passive intermediaries’ who essentially list properties for sale privately – with some concern being expressed by agents that this may already be happening.
Rightmove was the more wary of the two.
A spokesman for Rightmove said: “We will be carefully reviewing the changes announced to understand if they have any implications for media companies such as Rightmove.”
A spokesperson for Zoopla gave a more unequivocal statement.
He said: “We do not accept advertising on any of our websites from either private sellers directly or indirectly from intermediaries for private sellers, and the changes to the Estate Agents Act will not alter this.
“In order to list properties with us, members need to operate and be instructed by the vendor as the agent for the property and be responsible for, amongst other things, preparing the marketing details, conducting viewings and intermediating negotiations.
“Estate agents play a fundamental role in the process of buying and selling homes, and whilst there is obvious appeal to the concept of saving money through DIY home-selling, more often than not this proves to be a false economy, with private sellers either failing to achieve the best price or failing to achieve a sale at all and ultimately ending up at an estate agent’s door having wasted time and money trying to go it alone.”
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Comments
Wow; it's like lunchtime in the playground in here.
1. What is required is a clear, unambiguous definition of what an estate agent is and stiff penalties for business who try to pass themselves off as one
2. Consumers need protection from this change in the law to ensure they are, at the very least, no worse off than they are under current regulations no matter who they buy or sell through.
3. There is nothing wrong with honest different business models; the world moves on. We all have our USP's and, as long as all agents are abiding by the various pieces of legislation I personally, don't see a problem. If you feel someone is genuinely misleading consumers; complain to the TSO
Now, with all that said, if Rightmove were to suddenly decide that the best way to increase revenue for their shareholders was by suddenly becoming a passive intermediary...
Jonnie
I am not an EA, on line or otherwise, I am also not a House Price Crash er.
I have provided advice both paid and unpaid to link vendors with agents....It is not my main source of income.
I am toying with the idea of acting as a intermediary but if i am honest not full time. I have had relatives and friends that have been in the EA profession.
I hope that clears things up my business card says Procurement Consultant, I am considering where I P!ss
I hope this clears things up :0)
The trouble is hatch you keep slipping in salient points you didn't mention before and the £238 has gone altogether now!
then there are the claims about Ryan Air
"Ryanair don't offer a saving compared to Virgin? The service they offer is to get you from A to B. They just get from A to B using different methods".... the big white and blue things with wings aren't aeroplanes then?
I love the fact that the people who list with you and don't sell are simply subsidising those that do. So instead of a con, it is a lottery!
I think its a brilliant idea for agents with a High street presence to offer as an additional offering.
Suduko is a real popular maths game so I can see how trying to work out what the fees are going to end up would also make for a popular pastime
@Happy Chappy
Me and you were getting on quite well recently and found some common ground but im not totally sure of your experience in the property market, you never did tell me what’s printed on your business card and id like to know, it would be interesting
You speak as though you know the EA business well buts something is nagging at me that your experience is based on your own consumption of EA services rather than being someone that has provided them.
My business card says Jonnie, Senior Partner so im pissing from inside the tent out so to speak.
Jonnie
B.A nice to hear....and agreed there are good and bad whichever method you choose!
W
I am totally aware of the costs as is Hatched
Which is why his operating costs are lower than yours
How much it costs to run an estate agnet is of no interest to a vendor......the ability to market their property at the best cost is.
You have a choice try to adapt to capture some of the upfront fee segment of market or ignore that segment of the market and cocentrate on the No sale no fee segment.
However, which one do you think will will grow and which market will get smaller.
I'm always open to new ideas so that's why I'm interested in what others have to say about different ways of doing our job.
I own and run a traditional high street independent agency so as I said I've got no vested interest in the online agencies. Some will be good, some will be bad...just like us traditional agents.
W - Shesh vendors can work out what the change in fee would do to the amount saved .....it's still a saving though isnt it.
How much would you charge on 200K house?
What differentiates you from Hatched?
If you only have the no sale no fee model how do you justify whatever the extra cost?
If you can answer these 2 questions with no need to change your business model great. I am sure you are a very good agent and will continue to be a success
However, I consider a lack of awareness of the model being the only thing preventing more vendors going down this route and this is being addressed. On line agents are featured more and more in the financial press!
Jonnie
The £400k figure was simply an example that if someone doesn't pay up front, then they pay £2,000 on completion if they sell at £400k.
I wasn't saying that it was our average fee or anything. I was just trying to make it obvious that we charge more if the house is worth more than £160k, if that customer chooses a certain option...
Not sure why this wasn't understood - it's pretty clear to me it was simply an example fee!
Anyway, as mentioned, I am out of this conversation now.
And I haven't got a clue who inevitability is. Or B A Baracus. Or Happy Chappy for that matter.
Enjoy your day guys. No doubt we will speak again soon!
Happy Chappy;
You've been told by other posters elsewhere that your status as intermediary/advisor to family and friends appears to leave you with litttle idea of the mechanics of running an EA business. When you talk of 'menu pricing' are you REALLY aware of the costs that the menu items need to cover?
I have no wish to burn Mr Hatched at all, but I do wish to point out that his comparison pricing seems to be weighted to favour his agency with the use of theoretical EA fee percentages that, in my part of town, bear no resemblance to reality, and also a sample house price (£400,000) which is almost double my local average.
Happy Chappy
I know, that's why I am going to give up. There is no point. I will instead just continue to offer our customers what they want and let our business do the talking instead...
We have offices in Hitchin, Exeter, Sheffield & Manchester. Birmingham opens on 1st October. All offices are run by experienced agents and every future office will also be run by an experienced agent.
Hitchin is the closest to the South East at the moment and the guys in Hitchin office cover all the areas where we don't have an office and they have done since 2006.
We plan to start Chelmsford (or Maidstone), Reading, Brighton, Norwich, Newcastle & Cardiff by Spring 2013.
We will then have experienced & professional ESTATE AGENTS within around an hour of every single property in England & Wales.
@Hatched
Splendid – so, on average selling prices in England & Wales you save your customer a minimum £2062 on what id charge?
I think it’s your £400k thing that’s got you the grief Moonbeam, your minimum fees are based on just under £160,000?
Even with your Mum popping up here as ‘Inevitability……..’ you haven’t really had a rough ride here but you have been a bit ‘picky choosy’ with your numbers, no offence.
Jonnie
Peter I think he has ben very clear, but i understand why you are challenging his claims.
Hatched. I have been advising traditional agents to look at a menu pricing system on here for a long time, traditional agents with only one model can't or wont change, and will want to burn you at the stake if you claim there is any other way but no sale no fee model at x% of price achieved. It's a bit like when somone said the the earth was round.
Do you have any offices in the south east?
Jonnie
We would charge on £165k, without VAT:
1. £825 + nothing up front = £825
2. £412.50 + the £99 up front = £511.50
3. £199 + the £199 up front = £398
Inevitability.......
Thank you. Haha!
I will heed your advice and give up trying. Until the next time anyway...!
Mr Hatched - I've just looked at your website, and although you quote here a £400,000 house at 1.5% + VAT for comparison, your site has an even more odious comparison. Your 'average customer' saves £3500, you say - based on a £200,000 house with an EA fee of 2% + VAT
SInce the OFT determined the average E&W fee to be around 1.6% a few years back (with Scottish fees even lower), I'd suggest you're basically inflating this by one third or so to make your figures look better.
How do you think Tesco would react if Asda claimed
"Our beans are 10p cheaper than Tesco's beans at 45p"
- but Tesco' s actual price in the stores was 30p ???
I'll answer the question from Jonnie, based on a sale at £165,000
Hatched website says, as follows:
1. What would the fee be on completion with NO upfront cost...0.5% completion, £799 minimum...so in this case £825
2. What would the fee be on completion ON TOP of your £99 upfront fee deal...0.25% completion, £399 minimum...so £412.50
3. What would the fee be on completion ON TOP of your £199 upfront fee deal...£199 completion...so £398
Seems fairly clear to me. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm a traditional high street agent so I've got no vested interest...but it does seem a straightforward proposition?
hatched.co.uk, it was worth a try but trying to explain your business model et all is an exercise in futility on this forum.
Peter Jones says he respects you and he's not slinging muck but still manages to label you a 'con artist' with a 'dubious way to promote a business', hmmm.
You could stand hand in hand with Jesus H himself as witness and it still wouldn't matter because some people on here absolutely, unequivocally cannot and will not accept or comprehend any other state of existence but their own. Lets be honest, every time someone says or does something 'different' they get slaughtered. Dress it up how ever you want but we police the status quo with extreme prejudice, sad really...
Bless you for trying mate and we've all had a giggle at all the responses but my advice, just enjoy your success with a big fat smile on your face.
@hatched
Just to be quite clear and to provide an ‘apples for apples’ comparison can you fill in the gaps / answer the following based on selling a property for £165,000 (rough national average)
To kick off I would charge 1.75% / £2887 + VAT – let’s do it all net of VAT to keep it simple
1. What would the fee be on completion with NO upfront cost (ignoring EPC)?
2. What would the fee be on completion ON TOP of your £99 upfront fee deal (again ignore EPC cost)?
3. What would the fee be on completion ON TOP of your £199 upfront fee deal (again ignore EPC cost)?
Im not sure but I think you could nail this one by confirming the three points above as 3 figures in ££s combining upfront and completion fees.
Jonnie
Peter Jones
At last, we are getting somewhere...The up front fees is the basic concept and customers are fully aware that there is no gaurantee of selling their house - just like there is no gaurantee with a high street agent. People pay us for the work that we do, because it is a fair figure for what we do - £238 to get your house on Rightmove and give it a pretty good chance of selling - that 'ss a very fair deal, even if the house doesn't sell...
We don't have to charge £2,500-£3,000 to the successful house sellers, to cover the failures, which is what a high street agent does.
So, therefore your model is a very lucrative success perhaps...?
Do you really think your model is better for the customers?? To be fair, I'm not the judge of that - the customers are...And at the moment, they choose high street agency, but is that because they are unaware of the alternative? I wouldn't imagine (m)any other high street agent has grown at the same rate as 'online estate agency' in the last 2-3 years...
In my view, it is much fairer to make sure that the vendors who aren't 'motivated' or aren't 'pricing sensibly' to pay for the time and work that is spent on preparing and marketing a property - why don't you try it?
And be honest, if estate agency was started from scratch tomorrow, would you really all offer to do all these valuations, marketing of homes, agreeing sales only for them to fall through, for zilch?!
I don't think that anyone in their right mind would do that.
I dare say, that if estate agency was started from scratch tomorrow, there would be a charge for a valuation, you would charge to put the house on the market, you would charge for a For Sale board, you would charge for different levels of exposure and you would charge on completion - that would be the sensible way of doing it...
And that is exactly what we do. I don't feel I need to justify my fees to you or how they work. You can choose to believe the figures or you can choose not to.
However, one thing I can say is that our fees are there in black and white on our website. Unlike many agents I know who play the whole "Well our fees are negotiable and depend on many factors" rubbish. There is transparency in the 'online agents' model. There are absolutely no grey areas to what we charge and what the customer gets for their money.
And as a customer of many things myself (not necessarily estate agency), these are the things I would be looking for when I buy a product or service
My point hatched is that you can't pick and choose which bits of your fees you are going to use to compare with an Agents', no sale no fee success dependant commision.
Compare the 10000 properties you havent sold at your listing fee of £238 and you have charged £2.38 million to fail. Compare that with traditional agents who would charge £0 to fail. Yours is very luctrative failure!
@Happy Chappy, I respect the bloke for coming on here and defending his position, something very few actually do, no-one from RM, no-one from DPG ever do
That is either arrogance or cowardice, neither is good!
We are not slinging muck at hatched but the figures he uses can not be used for the bits that show him in a positive light without the negative stuff being considered too.
The claim of £3,000,000 is flawed based on his figures, the people on here are not gullible muppets who will accept it just because it has been typed.
I think matched boasted his way into a hole and is working hard to get out, he his nearly there but needs to make it clear just how £235 ends up at whatever figure on completion so value of his offering can be honestly compared with a traditional high street agent.
Over on LAT there is PR from a firm that has used up market agents to show how cheap they are but then failed to consider Ali Akbar or Much Cheapness lettings offer the same service but at a fraction of the cost.
Hatched's fee structure is not clear from what he has posted and that is a dubious way top promote a business.
Mr B A Baracus
Thank you - they are correct. You are one of the only people that is posting with an actual brain...
Peter Jones
As previously mentioned £475k is COMPLETION FEES. We get paid up front as well. I have said that we have saved vendors £3m on completion fees. Up front fees are a separate issue altogther and are for the work that we do UP FRONT and nothing to do with the completion fee.
@paul
Where on earth have I even summised that I have been taking on 12 instructions a day for 6 years? We were lucky to get on 12 instructions in a month 6 years ago, let alone in a day. We took on 12 yesterday. In a previous post, I mentioned that we have grown by 300% over the last 3 years. That would suggest that we have not indeed been taking on 12 properties a day for the last 6 years. To give you an idea, we took on an average of 38 instructions per month between 2007 and 2009. It is only since 2010 that we have really started to grow. Read the posts properly
Happy Chappy
I can gaurantee that the figures I have mentioned are not 'hyped up'. But thank you for sticking up for us. As you correctly say, no one can deny or discredit what we do.
Why can't people put forward constructive arguments, rather than calling us con-artists?
Or either that, perhaps it's time to accept that there is another viable way of doing estate agency in this country, which benefits customers and still allows a profitable business.
Most initial property searches are done on line this is a undeniable fact. If it wasn't agents would simply leave the portals rather than accept there price hikes!
As for Hatched maybe they are not taking as many instructions as he claims, the fact is they are saving vendors money on fees and you cannot deny or descredit it by throwing muck at the other parts of his claim.
So many permutations of those figures...my calculator has blown up!
Correct, if you are taking on that many instructions your stock levels would be massive, they just dont work out Hatched.
I think you are hyping your business model tbh.
Housenetwork only have 1400 listings and they are the largest, since 2005.
his figures not mine. 12 instructions per day for 6 years - 72 months, 20days per month
72x12x20= 17280
competions is 42% leaving 58% unsold
17280 x 0.58= 10022
There should be over 10000 of their instructions on the internet not 1500?
Hatched , your figures are all over the place, so much so that you are putting them down to justify one point then all of a sudden. £475,000 isn't what you have earned in 6 year to feed 16 staff. you have I presume a much higher figure.
If that is the case why compare your £475,000 to the agents commission when calculating the £3,000,000?
You simply come across as a con artist!.
I can understand the Maths as put forward by Hatched.co.uk in his previous posts.
I'm not saying that I agree, or disagree, with the numbers of instructions or the percentage of conversions that are qouted...but the calculations based on those figures do seem to be pretty much correct.
Unless my calculator isn't working correctly this morning!
Some of these online agents are actually starting to believe their own tripe. The online model is built around making a vendor believe that all house hunting is done online. Emoov claim 95% of people. Most of us know that this is not the case. (Please don’t quote righmove figures at me, that would be pathetic)
Since Hatched mentioned Essex. If I wanted to view detached houses in Essex (massive search criteria I know) at about the £400,000 mark how many viewings could they get me into, do you think? One. That’s how many. How many people actually end up buying the property they first enquired about?
No online agent can claim that they have access to the whole market; therefore they cannot claim they achieve best prices for their clients. If that’s the case then they can’t claim to save people any money whatsoever.
Nice example by the way hatched, 1.5% + vat on a £400,000 gaff. Do you guys not charge vat then? You conveniently assume we all charge 1.5% do you? When it comes to lies and statistics you guys take the biscuit.
Sorry, £400,000 is nowhere near a realistic 'average' house price to base a comparison on.....
Using that is deliberate over-inflation of the difference in charges.
I'll figure out later what the difference is on a £90,000 1-bed flat, or a £118,000 2-bed house..... which is more realistic for much of the country, I'd suggest.
Marie M
This is based on completions fees. The up front fee is a fee for the work we do up front and nothing to do with the completion fee.
Also, If I told you that fee, then you could work out how many instructions we've taken on and all sorts of other information and there are some parts of my busimess that will remain confidential as i dont want the other online agents knowing everything about my business (no offence Emoov.co.uk), so I won't be disclosing that. I think i've been pretty open and a 100% honest in everything I have answered thus far...
Blue
Yes, you would have thought wouldn't you!? Haha!
It really isn't that hard is it...
@ Hatched, you must feel like you are swimming in treacle on here. You would have thought that they might have a calculator between them.
@hatched
If you have saved customers £3,000,000 is that in completion fees alone or have you included the up front fees in the saving, if not what have you saved customers once you allow for the fact that they paid fees up front as well?
Paul
To be honest I feel sorry for you lot...
If you look at previous calculations, I have worked off of a 20 day working month, which would equate to 240 instructions per month...
To be fair, you're right, we had a good day yesterday. But Mondays are always busy. It averages out at around 8 a day
However, with our new offices just starting up, I would expect that to rise to circa 12 a day...maybe yesterday was the start of that...today, we are taking on 9
W
REALLY?? Are you actually serious...?
Saving on £400k comes from 1.5%+VAT which equals £7,200
We would charge £2,400 for this house sale
That is a saving of £4,800 - I would say that isn ear enough £5k!
The service we offer is to find a buyer at the best price. That's what we all offer isn't it?!? So if we sell the house, then we have offered the same service and therefore a saving
Ryanair don't offer a saving compared to Virgin? The service they offer is to get you from A to B. They just get from A to B using different methods. Lots of people are happy with these methods because of the SAVING it offers them. Some people aren't...
Hatched, im feeling for you, bet you wish you never replied.
Anyway, one thing I wondered, if u r taking on 12 instructions a day, that equates to 360 listings per month, you dont seem to have that many properties on your rightmove accounts? I would have though you would have had more say.....1500-2000
Hatched - "those that sell at £400,000 save £5,000" - based on what?
A selling price that's way above what most folks would consider an 'average' [property selling price, and what else? An unrealistically high comparison percentage, maybe?
Also, it's not a SAVING. A 'saving' is where you pay a lower price for a commodity or service in comparison to the SAME commodity or service provided elsewhere. That's not what's happening here. You're providing a different, cut-down service at a different price.
By the way Peter Jones, if your maths was right at £3,900, then I would be about £400 out for the day. And if you were right, that would still equate to £78,000 per month, which would still be enough to pay for our 16 staff, Rightmove listings, etc,etc
I can't believe I am getting questioned over a few hundred quid...
But your not right....you just don't 'get it' like most high street agents I know. Or either that, agents just don't want to believe that this is a viable way to run a successful business, sell lots of houses, as well as save customers a lot of money...
Deary me...
A MINIMUM of either £400 or £800. That means that some customers pay a £2000 completion fee (those that are selling at £400,000 and choose to pay us nothing up front - they still save circa £5000!) which is what bumps our completion figures up
And as for offices...we have had 1 office until about 4 months ago. Our offices in Manchester, Sheffield have only just opened...Birmingham opens next month
'£475k in 6 years'
Yes, that's just completion fees. We also charge up front remember...
Jesus, it's not hard...
53% sales? you complete on 42%, 58% fail to sell
I follow the £2140 bit but then
only 42% of those 8 who instruct and complete will pay £238
42% of 2 will pay £800
42% of 2 will pay £400
Total completion fees (guesswork really because you don't know which 42% will complete) = £1808 then plus £2140 that equals £3948 which is why your maths is either confusing or wrong.
I think you need to decide to be an Agent and charge properly for the work you do or decide to be a internet listing firm.
£475,000 in 6 years with 4 offices? under £20k per office per year?
Ok. I will explain in full. I don't think you have fully read my explanation, so I will go through this slowly... (I'm giving away trade secrets here! But I have nothing to hide...)
65% of our customers go for option 3 (where they pay £238 up front)
The other 2 options are split evenly
We sell, on average 53% of properties
However, we only sell approx 30% of props where people pay nothing up front (just goes to show that people who want something for nothing, value it at nothing and their motivation to sell is less than that of someone who will pay up front - a possible flaw in high street estate agency perhaps?)
Anyway, because people choose different fee options, and have different completion fees, all this works out, that our average completion fee is £360 per sale
Today...
12 instructions
8 people pay £238 up front (they will pay the same again if we sell the property)
2 people pay 118 up front (they will pay a min of £400 on completion, more if their house is worth more than £160k)
2 people pay nothing up front (they will pay a min of £800 on completion, more if their house is worth more than £160k)
= £2140
We sell 53% = 6 sales
6 sales x £360+VAT = £2592
Minus 14% fall through rate (our current fall thru rate)
= 5 sales x £360+VAT = £2160
Add the two figures (the up front fees and the completion fees on 53% of instructions) together and you get £4300. It's very simple maths...
Ok, so the £3million pounds:
We have completed on over 1100 sales in 6 years
Average house price circa £180,000 (over the last 6 years)
Average EA fee is 1.5%+VAT = £3240
1100 sales x £3240 = £3,564,000 in high street fees
minus
The completion fees we have made, which is £1100 x £360+VAT = £475,200
So deduct £475,200 from the £3.564m you lot would have charged and you end up with a saving of £3,088,800
I think those figures are more than fair...
And lastly...
Less regulation doesn't help or hinder me. If the changes go through, then I suppose technically, I will be able to accept details & photos from vendors and still advertise on Rightmove because I am still offering the viewings service, negotiating offers, etc. This will mean less cost for me. How does that make things worse for us??
If they were to increase legislation, then it will create more cost for me - training staff, probably having to pay for more ombudsman related bodies, etc
But I want more regulation because I hate estate agents being seen as 'scum of the earth'. I'm not an idiot. And I dont want to be treated like one. I/We offer a professional service and my/our expert opinion using years of experience and using qualifications i have gained.
As everyone knows it can be an incredibly hard job with many many stresses and I think the industry and estate agents should be recognised for the advice and the support that we provide during what can be a very stressful time for Joe Public.
I think the best way to do this would be to make the industry 'more professional' and improve the industries' image through regulation, legislation and accountability
Not much to ask. And at least we're trying...
W, it is clear. Just not to some.
Brain, gear, open, mouth.
It's a box said..
"If you can't explain how £2050 ends up at £4340 who can? "
They charge an upfront fee and a fee at completion. For the properties they signed up today, the £2050 is the money they've taken from the clients already.
If they sell these properties at the same rate as they've been doing already, their fees on completion are £2290.
2050 + 2290 = 4340
I thought it was clear.
Zoopla should think about researching their customers a little more.
They obviously have no idea who they are selling their services to and then they could answer the question more precisely.
They are your figures all I did was work out what you are really up to.
If you can't explain how £2050 ends up at £4340 who can?
I think the phase "our completion fees differ from option to option" is where you are confusing yourself and us.
As for working out what you have sold (total number of properties) that came from your boast on what you have saved people. I know what the UK average fee is, so either you are lying about your performance or you have over egged what vendors can expect to save.
If you are a traditional online Agent but online then you have more to worry about with the changes to the legislation. Without the substance of a visible presence then your sort of firm will be too easily confused with the unregulated ones. You have the rules and regulations to follow like the rest of us so the game has ben weight more against you than anyone. No wonder you wanted more regulation. Good luck!
Sorry, I have no idea where you have got these figures from...
Read our site.
We charge £238.80 up front. Then we charge £238.80 if we sell the house. That is a total of £477.60. Unless the average price of a house is £47,000, then I don't know where you have got your figure from...??
If customers don't want to pay up front, then they don't have to. But then we have to revert to a higher fee on completion, because we are not being paid in full for the work that we do at the start...
Can anyone else see where 'the person with no name' is coming from. Because I can't...
So there is a only 50/50 chance of selling and £1086.50 becomes £4340 through some unexplained at the outset matrix of fees.
I have run your figures Hatched and your average hidden fee is actually 1.085%
Excuse me Mr Cable was it your intention to open the market to some shady hidden fees con?
Well done you have had your Ratner moment too.
You sales rate is no higher than traditional agents and your fees are no lower.
We are an estate agent. We always have been - since we started in 2006.
We visit the house to take details, photos, advise on price, etc
We arrange the viewings
We get feedback
We negotiate offers on behalf of the sellers
We offer an 'after sales service'
The only things we don't do:
We don't waste our time doing 'Free Valuations', we charge for the job that we do.
We don't accompany viewings (apart from if the property is within a couple of miles of one of our offices)
We don't waste our money in the newspaper (do you think we sell less houses by not having a shop front?)
We don't have a shop front (see above...)
We don't hand the key over on completion (however, we do liaise with all parties to confirm that keys can be released, etc)
That is how 'online' estate agency works.
Personally, I have been in estate agency since 1997. So, we are not some fly-by-night web developer that has had the proverbial 'bad experience, so I wanted to do it myself estate agent'
We are ESTATE AGENTS!!! We just do a bit differently to the traditional estate agent. And it seems to work
And just so you know (so that at least we stay slightly on topic of the actuall story here) we were part of the original government consultation (before the uproar on EAT) proposals back in June, and also before that with the Dept for Business, Skills & Innovation and we lobbied for MORE legislation not less.
So Hatched are you an Estate Agent or not under the law as it is now?
Emoov.co.uk, you beat me too it! I was just about to make that exact point...
Unfortunately though, I have been out all day taking on 5 properties in Essex. My colleagues in Sheffield, Manchester & Exeter have also been out taking on a total of 7 properties between them. All for the measly sum of £2,050.
Assuming we sell 53% of these (which we have been doing all year), then we will make another £2,290 (our completion fees differ from option to option, so it is not simply 53% of £2050).
Work it out guys - That's £4,340 per DAY. Or £86,800 PER MONTH (20 working days).
So, yes, I think we (and Emoov) can afford our 16 staff members, our £10k a month Rightmove subscription, our 1st floor offices in the town/city centres and our (small) fleet of compay cars)
And. Hold the back page...We also make a profit, have saved clients circa £3,000,000 over the last 6 years and we have business which has grown over 300% in the last 3 years.
It'll never work though will it...
POTW - If it only took a couple of viewings to sell a house you would have a justifiable argument.
When you have tried to sell your own house you will realise what is involved and how much effort it takes. Just make a note of all the man hours it takes to effect that sale, let alone all the advertising costs.
siroje: We work in the North West where the average price of property is £160k and at 1 - 1.5% the average fee for the full service would be £2400.00.
Okay, a lot less than here in sunny Guildford.
But, even so - £395 or £2400 - for what, a couple of accompanied appointments?
To: more whinging opinions from Tunbridge Wells - do everyone a favour matey and stick to one name ...
Anyway ... You seem to be either keen to talk complete twaddle or, perhaps, you cannot read.
From the turtlehomes web site ...
"Complete our ”sell your home online“ form, and we will be in touch quickly to arrange to visit your home in order to take photographs, detailed floor plans, room measurements, descriptions and your Energy Performance Certificate."
Fancy that eh? Photographs ... photographs eh? Not an extra and available eh? As opposed to 'if available at all!'
And floor plans - room measurements, descriptions and an EPC! Ta daaah! Just like an Estate Agent.
If it looks like an Estate Agent, talks like an Estate Agent and does what an Estate Agent does ....
And, as always, I am not whinging. Just rejoicing in this additional option when the day comes to sell my humble abode. Hmmm - what's it to be 7 and a half grand, plus the dreaded - or £395? Eeeny, meeny, miny mo ...
'Added by paul on 2012-09-17 12:07:09
Emoov wont be around for long, they claim to have 12 employees and have nearly 1000 properties on RM, that would cost....'
Almost as unviable a business model as listing hundreds of properties each year for free at over inflated prices, selling 20% of them, half of those aborting and therefore only banking 10% of all the work you do. AND all within a tiny geographical territory commanded by an office in the middle of town that costs a fortune to run with ever increasing rent, rates and staff costs. Then multiplied by however many offices you have.
Ouch.
But that would just be crazy, wouldn't it? ;-)
The reason they don't want Estate Agents round the house is because most agents wash, shave and wear deodourant, they use fancy words like please and thank you.
lets sit back like the butchers, the bakers, fishmongers et all and not worry, when down market cheapo Tescos gets Mrs faulty on the telly saying one can return a whole salmon because it doesn't match the wallpaper.
Where do you buy your steriod pumped meat?
Some people just have the shi77y end of the stick all the time, poor sods, we all know them they are all around the place, job they hate, ugly Mrs that they never shag, dress like they’ve been rolled in glue then kicked through the front window of a charity shop, crap car, crap holidays, dull or zero social life and ive always said that any bloke that doesn’t have a best mate that they still see regularly and get rip roaring drunk with like they did when they were young is normally quite odd.
These chaps always get mugged off, normally have to complain about services they buy as they are by nature, and despite the cobblers they spout unbelievably naïve and make poor choices most of the time.
As an unsurprising coincidence their poor luck also means they are the ones that get lumbered with crap EA’s and therefore have this view its all 20 something lads in a Burtons suit, a skinny tie that use moisturiser. They will also be the ones that think being an EA means putting an advert in the window / online and waiting for the phone to ring and would thoroughly enjoy hiding in the shed making their own for sale sign one Sunday while they should be spending it with their ugly wife, for them selling direct is the best they deserve and everything they want in one dollop.
You never get a successful, handsome, humorous bloke with a nice house, pretty wife and a knock out social life that hates EA’s?..................or successful house builders, or huge corporations selling off repos, they are just savvy enough to use good ones and understand the value.
Jonnie
It is coming - people are getting very used to the idea of DIY in this country.
I can put up my own shelves thank you very much!
We are all guilty of it to some degree and Go Compare, Direct Line, eBay, Amazon, ASOS, and all the other online stores that are quietly turning our high streets into Charity Shop havens just proves the point that nearly every business is susceptible to it.
Estate Agents are not immune from this and one day someone will come up with a realistic way to cut out the "spivs in suits".
It's difficult to deny that for some, the online agent has a role. For some, who can actually perform the tasks necessary to complete a sale, these online agents provide a service. With the governments apparent approval this isn't even an argument anymore.
Zoopla and Rightmove share different thoughts on them and although Zoopla is to be applauded, from a financial point of view, it's a decision that may well change later down the road. There's no room for sentiment in business so lets see how long they play this particular USP now that they've linked up with DPG.
Incorporating this type of service into our traditional business model is dangerous as it risks cannibalising our core revenue, proper estate agency work. Ultimately it will erode our Industry so I think we need to maintain a clear distinction.
I've seen agents open offices right next to each other and are still trading today so why should we be concerned by the online agent? They are simply another competitor that can only ever help the more able vendor; a niche market.
Our Industry isn't 'flat pack', we're bespoke. Trading on the tradition and quality of our service will always win us business. The business won by the online agents, just like a lost Valuation, was never really ours to have.
PropertyLive is in a very bad way, best you pay your respects now.
Photographs Puzzled? I think you will find that is an extra, if available at all.
If I am based in Nottingham and my only property for sale, (quoting one famous online agent offering) you are not getting photos for £200. Take them with your iPhone and send them in with some text. Spell checking is extra too
Online Internet advertising just like the Online agents only 20% cheaper
Turtles only have 70 properties
Im putting my home with emoov, im going to overprice it by 20% but it does not matter as its there until SOLD, bargain.
Property Live should take private sales to even things up and be fair.
POTW - Not so sure about the 6 grand?
We work in the North West where the average price of property is £160k and at 1 - 1.5% the average fee for the full service would be £2400.00.
EW - Sorry, missed that one!
Siroje: 'The quickest way for Estate Agents to diffuse the threat from online agents is to bolt on an additional online service and match exactly what these so-called ‘passive intermediaries’ do for a similar price or less.'
Okay Mr. Punter, we can offer you our online service for £295. We'll take some pictures, moody up a description, place your property on the portals and make appointments etc. 'All you as the vendor need to do is to show prospective purchasers around your property and let us take care of everything else.' (that last sentence is from turtlehomes' web site)
Or, you can have a full service where we .... errrr .... do everything above ... and ... errr... oh, yes, we'll accompany viewings too. That service is just the straight 1.5% which, on your 400k property, will amount to, ahem, 6 grand please.
Sounds like a good time to move everything to Zoopla and short Rightmove!
@siroje...That is what Trafford said.
Emoov wont be around for long, they claim to have 12 employees and have nearly 1000 properties on RM, that would cost
RM fees: 20 memberships at a rip off £450 say + vat, without RMs useless upgrades, that would double that to £900+vat a month. Totalling £18000+vat per month.
Employees, they must be on £20k a year min, so thats another £20,000
Every month £38000
Nearly forgot Z, FAP an PL, say £5k
Thats £43,000 a month going out
There model is £349+vat so thats 123 new instructions a month to break even, possible yes but i think they would have more properties than what they have.
They also must be paying google a fortune on adwords as they are also number 1 ALL the time.
Maybe they will around for a longtime but i dont think so!
The quickest way for Estate Agents to diffuse the threat from online agents is to bolt on an additional online service and match exactly what these so-called ‘passive intermediaries’ do for a similar price or less.
You’ve thought about this a lot haven't you Trafford?
How is your revolution coming on?
For those that missed his(?) posts last week Trafford got a bit pi55ed at the latest round of RM price rises and has been making one or two pointed posts ever since.
Perhaps it is that Grumpy chap Henry Pryor was giving odds of 1:100 on for MD of NAEA, whoever it is knows a bit about Agency and the internet.
You haven't understood have you? I am not suggesting Agents only do Interweb listing. I am suggesting they do it As Well as the stuff they have been doing for the past umpteen generations.
Competing with the folk that are competing with them.
Simply copy the Emoov pricing structure, knock off 20% and take in a few quid they wouldn't have had anyway.
If Agent cover their Rightmove fees each month with seller subscriptions that is one bill they don't have to worry about!
At £200 u wont make a penny, it costs £25 a month to be on all the portals. Half of them wont be around in 6 months.
Traditional Estate Agents should offer this cut price internet advertising mullarky. 200 quid for every place you stick on the interweb, it makes for a decent dollop of jam on top of your usual bread and butter stuff.
Play your competition at their own game only do it better! If Online advertising is a service vendors want ,supply it! Why not? You are geared up for it and it is a sensible use for the fixed costs invested in your office and your staff.
You are not Estate Agents you are Website caretakers that effectively Ebay property on the cheap.
"with private sellers either failing to achieve the best price"
1. Prove it
2. Price is only one part of the equation.
Turtlehomes.co.uk are an estate agent. As are we.
The only difference between us and the other online agents is that we visit every single property that we put on the market. We also have regional offices with staff manning those offices.
Turtlehomes, Emoov, Housenetwork, etc use DEA's from what I can understand. Or they outsource the work to a company like KeyAgent.
Personally, with the changes in the EAA, this could pose problems for this model...
I can see Rightmove & Zoopla both now saying that every property must be visited by a trained employee of the organisation and not allowed to be outsourced to non-estate agents
But who knows to be honest! Bottom line is that all of us 'online estate agents' were estate agents before the proposed changes to the EAA. And we still are today.
Doesn't providing the engine to power private sellers directly or indirectly from intermediaries for private sellers amount to the same thing.
http://www.turtlehomes.co.uk/ ? Evening Standard?