Members of the National Federation of Property Professionals, including NAEA and ARLA agents, could be charged a compulsory £840 per office, per year, to promote the website PropertyLive.
An email canvassing opinions has been sent to users of PropertyLive which, until now, has always been seen as a free resource for NFoPP members.
One agent said he was “utterly gob-smacked” by the idea of the £70 a month per branch levy. He said: “We have already forked out hundreds on training, certificates and annual membership.” He, and others, said they were also critical of PropertyLive.
The £70 a month suggestion compares with the £308 average cost-per-branch on Rightmove.
NFoPP chief executive Peter Bolton King robustly defended the charging proposal, saying the idea had come from members in the first place and that it would be the members would decide the issue.
He said: “This is not something that would be imposed from the top down. It is a member-led initiative.
“It is the members themselves who are wanting to know how we will be handling the next stage of PropertyLive. The site is working very well now, but we need to get our message out to consumers. Whenever we go into members’ meetings, it is members who are raising this and it is they who are suggesting that one way forward is to charge their offices.
“There does seem to be an appetite in wanting to support PropertyLive in this way.
“An effective advertising campaign could cost between £1m and £2m.
“I must stress that at the moment, the levy is an idea. It is not set in stone and we are simply gauging members’ opinions.”
NFoPP has published losses of around £1m for its last financial year, but the deficit had been expected and budgeted for. The annual report explains that it had been decided to cut costs where possible, but to use previous surplus in order to continue providing services and to move forward on other projects.
In his email this week to PropertyLive users – who also include auctioneering and commercial property members of NAVA and ICBA – Bolton King says of PropertyLive: “Over the last 12 months, we have been developing the site to a position where we can confidently promote it as a leading resource for people looking to buy or rent a property.
“A number of key changes have already been made to improve the visibility of the site on major search engines such as Google, and this work will continue over the coming months. Over time, this will lead to significant increases in visitors to the site, and an increased number of valuable leads to our members.
“Despite our confidence that these changes will significantly raise the value of PropertyLive, we expect that it will take some time for them to generate the results that our members want to see.
“We have also fully investigated a number of complementary strategies, with the aim of increasing the number of visitors to the site. Until traffic to the site increases and additional revenues are made through PropertyLive, additional funds would be needed to support any such campaigns.
“A number of our members and area branches have already approached us with the suggestion of introducing a compulsory monthly marketing levy per office registered on PropertyLive. These member contributions would be strictly ring-fenced for the sole purpose of marketing PropertyLive.
“By way of example, a £1.7m annual advertising budget (approx £70 a month contribution from each office registered on PropertyLive) would include two TV advertising campaigns and promotion in major national newspapers.”
He added: “Support from members in promoting the site is essential.”
An online survey about the suggested levy is available to members. The results will be discussed at the next NFoPP board meeting on April 27.
NAEA agents canvassed about paying for PropertyLive
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Comments
Stupid name, poor website, stubborn owner, end of story.
The portal debate will roll on and on but at the end of the day, wannabee portals like look4aproperty sadly have miniscule traffic levels and virtually no profile with potential vendors and applicants. Ever wonder why these small portals don't publish their raw stats? Because they'd be laughed out of the market. Love them or hate them, we pay for Rightmove because it gets the job done. There's no effective marketing campaign that can be had for £1m to £2m - collecting that in the form of a branch levy would be an absolute waste of time and money. The right and only course of action is for the affiliate groups to actually control their memberships and collectively bargain with Rightmove instead of kidding themselves that they can run their own portals. But then the affiliate groups are a piss poor waste of time too.
depends where you are terry. Im on all 4 and rightmove produces far more leads.I know some london agents can do without rightmove as prime location is stronger in the city, but out here in the sticks we need them.
The Rightmove cost of £628 incl vat is for a 1 person sales only listings monthly.
Gary i was thinking like you about going with the 3 mentioned as £628 per month seems excessive.
Where's that Trevor kent in this post. He seems to pop up in just about every other post telling people to join this website, where is he now?? It makes me laugh how many "experts" there are on here. Its so frustrating when people see their own opinion as fact. Surely instead of posting daft commens on here you should be sunning yourself in the bahamas on your luxury private yacht which you bought with all the millions you have earned. lol!
This issue as clearly demonstrated by the 1.7m figure is that at just over 2,000 offices it is just so far shy of the critical mass required to make it a hit with the public.
I use look4aproperty.com and findaproperty.com and zoopla (ex property funder) and all 3 provide a the same level of leads that I was getting from rightmove for half what i was paying rightmove and I can show my vendors I use 3 good portal sites rather than 1. Dicth rightmove and use these 3 and save half your money!
Simples!
Garry may I suggest that as you have quotes in earlier post your involvement with Radarhomes.co.uk you should take not of the quote “those in glass houses should not throw stones.” I have recently been shown some paperwork by an agent who RadarHomes were attempting to recruit and some of the terminology involved in some of the paperwork left both them and myself a little more than concerned and puzzled.
Extract of one of the documents shown included the following terminology.
“By signing this statement I may lose significant rights;
I may have no right to complain to either of the following”
Regarding your statement that I have time due to other stories I have posted on this is the first story I have posted on outside those directly involving AskTheHomeSearch.com. From Monday there will be a number of additional property listings on our site and yes currently Tepilo does feature heavily this could be due o the number of listings they have on there data feed supplied to our database but they are by no means the only listings on our site.
In posting such comments you should as I have done declare a bias given the fact your involvement with RadarHomes portal.
I have not done any thing intentional to antagonism any one especially agents and have become aware of a small vocal minority in the industry that fight change with all there might we want it all our own way all the time brigade the majority of the industry is open minded and forward thinking and do move with the times and do not make comments like “crash and burn” How grown up are you.
Have a good weekend!
ATHS You are obviously very busy as you seem to have nothing to do all day except write your illiterate novels here. As for your site I gave it the benefit of doubt and took a look (this will help your visits if nothing else). I am sorry to be rude but you obviously have a thick skin, as this and so many other strories you comment on is proving, therefore I am sure you won't mind me saying how awful your site is, not only does it seeem to be nothing more than an extension of Telipo(in fact are you Sarah!)but the content is pitiful and lacking anything interesting.
Have you thought about trying to take your ideas! to another website and seeeing if there is anything you have that may be useful to them.That way they may offer you a job at the same time. Please accept this as constructive, because if you continue with this, especially antagonising agents as you are you will crash and burn. Anyway I've had a busy day and must get home to my family.
Terry: If this monthly figure is correct, then I would suggest that it is scandalous and certainly wouldn't recommend you take up RM's kind offer. You have to give more info, though - what type of services do you offer? Sales? Letttings? Both? New Homes (that is the real killer - trust me... ;0( ). Regardless, you will never reap the benefit of the site if it costs you that amount.
EAT should set up it's own portal for all the agents, we can then get behond that and make it work! I'm up for it, any one else?
Terry I take it that amount is per year from RightMove?
Because if its as I suspect per month my answer to you would be that AskTheHomeSearch.com and The Property Channel would offer unlimited listings on AskTheHomeSearch.com per month and a number of spot listings on our TV Channel on Sky and still give you change from that amount as would before its pointed out other portals making the RightMove is not always the best move although I have an obvious bias interest to declare.
"The £70 a month suggestion compares with the £308 average cost-per-branch on Rightmove"
I have been given a quote by Rightmove for a 1 man set up of £628(inc vat).
Is that to much?
Thanks
Folks, if you are considereing your marketing - we are a portal for the rental industry and we charge £35 + vat per month letting agent fees - half that of propertylive's proposed rates and we have twice the traffic and users stay on the site around five times longer, if not more.
It goes without saying as has been pointed out from some listings that agents will give much more professional descriptions and listings for a property plus have the professional ability to detach them self from the property to sell it in a professional manner yes some individuals may be able to do this but agents do it for a living and yes I do believe that for example supermarkets should stick to selling bread and not sell houses the same as agents should not start selling bread and milk. Every one has there own job to do.
We are making adjustments to our site and look forward to been able to welcome you PeeBee make sure you let us know its you when you join us! With regards ETA running an article we have found that
There press release only seams to pick up negative news articles if stamp duty was scraped today they would still put a negative spin on it taking a quick look at the current run of headlines.
We have sent then a Press Release regarding our upcoming deal but it will not see the light of day with them unless they can put negative spin on it over to you ETA…
As I have said PeeBee we are open to any comments and take them all onboard we wish to build a site that everyone agents and users alike are happy with please email any comments to info@askthehomesearch.com after all this thread is really about the fact that Propertlive.co.uk now wish to look at charging agents not about AskTheHomeSearch.com and The Property Channel.
ATHS.com (short but sweet...): My 'bugbear' as you put it is in your interests, remember. If I see it, then so do others - but maybe they won't have the stones to tell you. I defended your stance with Tepilo; don't see what all the fuss was about as Agents will obviously make a more professional job of their listings... won't they?? As far as I am concerned, if your site improves in the ways it should, I might just use it myself...
I will Sky+ the prog next Monday - are you going to give away any more detail before then?
Perhaps EAT will run a news story for you - but I'm probably telling you something you've already got in hand... ;0)
time to lay off askthehomesearch, he's right about the amount of flack he has got. Like he says they must be doing something right and he must be laughing all the way to the bank with that cheque that sarah beeney just wrote him.
P.S please tell me she paid you?
Big Picture time guys AskTheHomeSearch is the start of a group of services we have planned including AskTheNumber.com a free online directory service AskTheFlatmate.com and so the AskThe..... is part of our branding for all our services. AskTheHomeSearch.com is our primary service with the additional services been developed to back up the name and drive traffic to the AskTheHomeSearch.com site including a number of associated UK regional property sites such as yorkpropertyfinder.com and a number of international sites over next few months following partnering with overseas portal partners including a service for the UAE and US.
Regarding The Grammatically correct name we spent time checking the name with a number of potential users and industry related individuals and before any one gives the comment Friends and Family no they were not linked in any way. The feed back received was that the name was industry relevant for what the portal was primarily aiming to do help people find a new home when they asked for property in a give location Ask The Home Search. Hope that give you the answer to your comment T-hick!!!
We believe our naming is more relevant to our portal and the industry than Zillow Zoopla Gumtree RadarHomes PropertyLive. We have only been live for a month now and the hits received on site per day would go to suggest that coupled with our TV operation we must be doing something correct?
Suggest you watch The Property Channel on Monday at 2pm channel 216 to see the National Home
Builder that has just joined our service there chairman will be introducing some of there range of homes on the channel along with the listings going on AskTheHomeSearch.com
Any way back over to PropertyLive and NAEA now this is there turn for flack from the industry not ours we had our turn last week.
Pee-Bee your big bug bear with our service will be resolved soon!!!!
T-Hick: Congratulations - you well and truly live up to your chosen name.
I was merely drawing attention to one particular advert which did nothing to enhance the professionalism of the website. The other comments related to the actual website itself, produced by or for AskTheHomeSearch.com - which again dilute its' claim to professionalism. Of course I am aware how websites such as this get their material - I am also painfully aware of how bad the material is and how easily the hosts could resolve the situation.
As for you, well - learn to spell, get your own grammar in order and count letters before you replace with *s - then come back and join the party. You're out of your league - there are adults reading this, you know...
askthehomeserch, i dont think radarhomes is called that because of sky dishes, i think its because radars find things.......just a thought.
but ATHS, its NOT gramatically correct!!! Surely it should be askthehomesearch..something??
One thing I would like to ask regarding comments on our portal name is how comments can be made about what is really a user orientated portal name AskTheHomeSearch.com looking for a home just AskTheHomeSearch.com!!! compared to RightMove, FindAProperty, and then you start with Zoopla even Propertylive or Radarhomes I know over 10 million homes now have adish on them in the UK but that don’t mean they all radar stations. How is what is really more of a suggestion to the site user with the term, AskTheHomeSearch any different than “o yes I want to find a house what should I do o I know Zoopla” same quote more market relevant “o yes I want to find a house what should I do I know AskTheHomeSearch” which has more of a relevant to the market branding?
Peeebee, are you stup**d or what? Of course the description is a datfeed from an agent!!! If you do not realise that (yet criticise Askthe...yep what a name!!) then you really are NOT qualified to pass ANY comment at all, go, gon, get off, now...go!
Gary: " I was only a member for the Kudos of it quite frankly."
Speaks volumes. What chance has the NFoPP of ever being taken seriously, when so many members simply take it for a ride? You pays your money, takes your 'letters'. Looks good on the business card, eh? ;0)
AskTheHomeSearch.com: I understand where you are coming from... however surely you should not expect - nor want, for that matter - Agents and members of the public to tell you where you are failing? Yes, look for improvement through discussion with existing users - but getting the basics right in the first place would have given you far more credibility.
Hey - what the heck; if you want my input, just say so... I'm all for making a difference - and I don't think that what you are aiming to do is a bad thing ;0)
Having been a FNAEA for many years I am completely bemused by this. I was only a member for the Kudos of it quite frankly.
PL is run by an association not a commercial business and when, after being in operation for 2 plus years, it is only producing 300 visits per day it proves it is not and will not be run properly. TV advertising will be a waste of time until it is established. PL needs to invest in SEO and get it more relevant on Google although I'm sure this will take time. As an agent I am as concerned about the control and power RM have over us which is exactly why I have invested in joining and supporting Radarhomes. I along with all the other agent members have ownership and control in this website and I believe this is the first property site I have seen that could potentially give me and the rest of the members control over our own content which is the way it should be. Unlike with newspapers we may not be powerful enough individually or regionally to take on RM but collectively across the country we will be, this may take Radarhomes a bit of time to achieve, but I for one am right behind it as I know collectively we do have the power and ability to break RM.
I have been a member of and supported the NAEA since 1975 and it is increasingly becoming an advertising company for "ad ons", mainly expensive courses, meetings and "jollys". Additional fees for PropertyLive would only be used to supplement the FNoPP income for wages and pensions etc. etc.
I have also supported PropertyLive since the first time it was tried -years ago! Never a lead!
The point is that Rightmove has obtained its position not mainly by membership charges or TV but by the FREE advertising that nearly every agent gives it (look at agents own websites, property details and press advertising)
The first thing that needs to be done to promote a FREE PropertyLive is for it to be made compulsory for members to advertise it in the same way that they do for RM. NFoPP could monitor it by each member having to submit a copy of their Letterhead & Property Detail on membership renewal. Easy. Cost minimal - effect national advertising for PL.
Think about it!
Peebee not wishing to hijack this thread we are taking all comments on board and making some changes to our portal and hope the changes that will happen over the next week will meet with agent’s approval Peebee as you can understand our site is populated by the data feeds we receive from clients listing with us an not via our own input of details as a result we do not check every listing in order for us to check out the offending data supplier we would be happy to talk privately with you if you wish to give feedback on this and any other comments you may wish to give. As we have stated in the past we wish to build a portal that agents are able to promote there listings on not do battle with the industry.
And the only way we can get a balanced service is via feedback to enable us to make adjustments to our service.
AskTheHomeSearch.com: Following last week's 'exchanges of views' (sounds much better than scrap, don't you think...?) I applaud you putting your head above the parapet once more. Especially as those who take the time to visit your website will throw everything they have got at you for having the neck to even think of promoting your woeful website...
Example, taken straight from one property 'advert': "Margaret got her bus pass in December 2007 and is now ready to retire properly! Will add more details later - rather busy at the moment - beds to change!" And that was one of the best! I know I have a go at folk regarding their spelling and grammar (my view is that the public may read these comments and wonder whether any Agent or 'property professional' ever got past primary school level education) - believe me, Sir, your website has more cock-ups than an Amsterdam bordello! Not good for the user, or those who are paying for a professional service. I wish your venture well; don't even have a problem with self-sellers, as I said previously - but tighten up and make good then you might have a fighting chance. Sincerely hope you take these comments in the constructive manner they are meant.
As a non-member (was, though, in another life...) of the NAEA, I will be impartial and I hope objective. NAEA membership fees will not cover the cost of a strategic advertising campaign - so the site will have to be self-funding. In theory, more publicity should generate more traffic, so members should see better results.
Seventy quid is small coal in todays market - again not a major factor to resistance, and again in theory be good money well spent.
Now to the 'BUTs':
1. The site is terrible. No further explanation required. Before ANY further investment is made, this must be sorted, or else all will be wasted.
2. Two million quid won't go very far to promote it on national TV etc, so be prepared for more expenditure.
3. Isn't it ironic how, in order to promote t'internet (which is hailed as the death-knell to press advertising), it has to be advertised in the press!! Always creases me up, that one... ;0)
Lets face it, the NFoPP have the industry at heart, and should therefore look to giving best value for money. Sadly, so far with the current model they fail - but I see from visits to the site that members let it down in a far bigger way!
Hope someone in NFoPP reads this and uses it constructively. Your members aren't happy - and they have good reason.
As an non estate agent,am I missing something.
The propertylive site has an alexa ranking of 523,000 which equates to about 300 visits a day, and half of those are probably the visits by the webmasters. No wonder you havent seen any leads.
I run a niche website for residential landlords with an alexa rank of 130000 called propertyhawk, and it hasnt cost us a million pounds to get to that point.
Do they seriously think that you should pay £70 a month to be sat on that?
I would of thought you could find better charities to give your money to.
AskTheHomeSearch.com, I can't beleive you are using this discussion to plug a poorly designed website with a stupid name.
PBK has confirmed that it will not be compulsory for NAEA members to use Property Live .... so in the event that a compulsory fee is introduced we can opt out of using it. I'm not aware of receiving leads from it, but when I look at the site I find relatively few homes on it. For PL to have a chance surely we (NAEA members) should all be using it whilst it does not charge. If it then becmes a charging site we can all review our use of it. I'm thinking of investing in the radarhomes.co.uk newish site, but would like to see us all give PL a chance. USE IT !
Do you think that ARLA wake up in the morning and say ’let’s see how we can stuff the morons who pay our wages’? I am beginning to think that this is the case.
2 months ago I spoke to Property Live to find out why we had never received any leads from them - their advertising seems to point to the fact that Property live was a fantastic service and a great way of obtaining new leads . I was dealt with in the usual unhelpful way that I have come to expect of anyone that I talk to at ARLA. Advising me that they had no way of finding out if we had had missed any leads as they did not have ‘that type of data base’. So was left with the feeling that we could be deemed to be giving poor service to applicants who apply to us and we never bother to get back to them. Great!
AskTheHomeSearch.com is £75 per month Per Branch unlimited listings and has the Backup of marketing opportunity via The Property Channel. We have listened to comments made following article last week about AskTheHomeSearch.com we wish to work with agents to build a service of benefit to both agents and the user further details newagent@askthehomesearch.com Agents joining our portal over next month will have there price set for 5 years no hike round the corner no sudden shock £75 unlimited listings on AskTheHomeSearch.com and associated sites.
If any charge is introduced, I will cease using Propertylive; I cannot recall getting a lead as yet.
Don't assume it will stop there. My concern is that paying the £70pm now to provide funds to promote the site will inevitably lead to the charge increasing, in which case, why should I bother being a party to creating a competing website and move from Rightmove (in my case) where leads are not a problem.
That said, If subscribers were offered a stake in the website then I might see value in subscribing to Propertylive otherwise maybe it is best to leave Propertylive when the charge is introduced and come back on board when/if it is an effective competing website.
It's like watching the first episode of The Apprentice - You're Fired. You know, the guy who volunteers to be the first leader, who then screws it up because he's so far out of his depth. None of his team tells him what a bad idea it is.
i agree with chris and leigh we have been using prop live since its inception and not one single lead has been generated in the same period rightmove has consitantly generated 85= leads per month you do the maths.a waste of time effort and money on behalf of its members.
Why not charge per lead?
Use phone tracking and email tracking.
Phone leads cost around £14 to generate. So what about £5 per unique phone lead? Invest this money into marketing, but guerilla marketing and partnerships not just blow it all on one TV campaign. And do something like put properties first on Property Live, get a database of buyers who are hungry and market other products to this database i.e. conveyancing/morgages/survey etc. This makes up the rest of the money.
At least give it a go.
Boyd Butler
The disaster of PropertyLive is a clear example of how badly the NAEA is run. We have not received a single lead from PropertyLive yet. The idea that a TV campaign and newspaper advertising would change this shows up the old school thinking of the NAEA. The money would clearly be much better spent on internet advertising through banner ads, link building, SEO, Google Adwords etc - exactly the things that savvy agents are doing already. Our firm would leave immediately a compulsory levy was imposed for this disastrous website which has been so incompetently implemented.
Jim. Your wisdom is awe inspiring - and chillingly accurate in my opinion
This has a familiar ring. Company looks in envy at market leader and says we'll have a go. Invests in design and implementaion, launch is unsuccessful. Company analises market leader again and decides initial investment not enough to compete, so increases investment by issueing shares. Still unsuccessful. Board decides it must continue as cannot justify capital wasted so far. All remaining capital thrown at project in hope/desperation. Board sacked by shareholders, new board exclaimes surprise at naivity of previous board and shuts down project immediately.
Good luck with your investment chaps.
Thanks, db and Che, for your PR comments. But really, where are the NAEA members who are wanting to pay for this? I haven't heard from any. Go on, NFoPP, make it mandatory and you won't have any members left. Just scrap the useless and costly website. before you pour any more members' money down the drain.
keep dreaming guys you could pay propertylive £1000 a month and they still wouldnt make a dent in any of the major portals market share
Here here! it's about time we members got behind the things we ask for. If we want PropertyLive to compete with the likes of Rightmove, we should be supporting it in anyway we can, so that maybe one day we can leave them behind!
Well I think charging a small amount each month is an excellent idea as this will open many doors for PropertyLive and the NFoPP members!!
We have supported propertylive since it began, we have yet to receive a single enquiry !!
Property Live has been a embarrassing farce from day one. It was launched late, went way over budget, missed a golden opportunity to grab a major market share/ really help its members and was voted on as a FREE member benefit as one of its key selling points. The NAEA is losing its way. It is a very sad day. I, for one, will not be paying for something that has yet to deliver a single lead/ enquiry.