Tories will put pledge to scrap HIPs in manifesto

Will they also please pledge to scrap Whitehall. The biggest white elephant this country has seen for decades.

• 14 July 2009 13:53 PM

HIPS don't work, fact! Most of us agree with this, but one element of the HIP is essential and that is the EPC. 1997 All European Union member states ratified the 1997 Kyoto Protocol and part of this agreement was to measure the amount of CO2 domestic properties discharge. The second part of the agreement was to encourage/ enforce the improvement of properties with substandard ratings. HIPs were an ideal launching tool to get these EPC's done, so they were built-in and the rest is history. The second phase is to make substandard properties more efficient. I believe that we are a few years off this yet, but my guess is that council tax will be reduced slightly for properties with a green rating, raised slighlty for properties with an amber rating and a greater punishment for properties with a red rating. Properties without an EPC will automatically be classed as red, until the owners pay for an EPC to get it changed! Anyway, I feel that when HIPs are dropped, the surveyors should do the EPC at the survey or mortgage valuation and solicitors are not allowed to exchange unless they have one. PIQ's should be scrapped as we now know them and be included in the solicitor questionaire at the time of the sale as it has always been.
I feel sorry for the HIP providers that are going to struggle when it all ends, but they should have never been created in the first place and at least they have made some money for a few years! Sorry, but your role has no place in the buying/ selling process.

• 13 July 2009 01:28 AM

Don't know why what I wrote posted like a newspaper column either..

• 10 July 2009 22:33 PM

I don’t think that Hip’s are a bad thing at all, I just think they don’t work as effective as what they were made out to be. My original post was merely making the point that Estate Agents use the Hip as now a source of revenue, yet a Hip provider/ solicitor does all the hard work. This bolt on fee by agents in a big company can lead to huge profits in quite times and in my opinion the sellers are being or can be mislead through Agents greed in getting this fee through over valuing. This sounds great at the time because who wouldn’t try to get more money for their property, my point is after convincing the seller that there house is worth £50k more than it actually is (based on a sale price of say £300k) there really isn’t much more you need to do for a ‘Bolt on fee’. So while some of us try give sound advice and point the customer in the right direction, others use this to merely make money with no thought of weather it will sell or not, why should they they’ve got there fee. That’s what grinds my gears, not the red tape that is questioning is the Hip or good thing or bad thing.

• 10 July 2009 22:23 PM

In theory Martyn you are right. However, it would be impossible to turn bad conveyancers into good ones overnight. It is much easier to create a basic system of working that anyone (good or bad) can follow. I am currently creating Exchange Ready Hips in the area I live in. I have just got back from seeing the sellers of a property in Ashburton. I have the PIQ and an EPC will be prepared on Monday, when searches etc will be ordered. I have also got a proper Property Questionnaire completed and collected a water invoice, a heating guarantee and an electrical report. These documents will all be added to the Hip along with any additional Land Registry documents referred to in the office copies. In short, I have created an Exchange Ready Pack (or as near as you can get to one) very easliy. I should not be doing this, agents working with local conveyancers should be. The sellers are more than happy that this work has been done in a relaxed atmosphere and not in the middle of a frantic sale and purchase!!

• 10 July 2009 20:04 PM

oops, sorry I don't know why it posted like that!

• 10 July 2009 17:57 PM

I fully understand that most in the professions instinctively rail against government interference and I have quite a lot of sympathy with that. To say HIPs were thrust on the industry without consultation is a nonsense. I was involved in consultation since December 1998. (I am a residential Chartered Surveyor, not a HIP provider or agent, though I did agency work 25 years ago). Yes, the HIP implementation has been disastrous and we don’t need to go down the road of why or who is to blame, but surely no-one can argue against the basic premise of getting up-front information together, efficiently? I have come round to accepting that the supposed policing benefits of the 1st day marketing restriction are far outweighed by the restrictions on market practices; they were put there to prevent loopholes by poor quality operators but frankly, there are so many loopholes and gaps anyway that it is not appropriate. Rob Hailstone is absolutely right about the system needing improvement and the point is, the technical solutions are getting there, but the legislation was out of kilter with them. Some of the problems (e.g. lack of online inclusive-cost search refreshment at exchange) are due to the slowness of technical solutions becoming universal. Others (lack of condition related information) are down to political and economic factors, although the fundamental concept of both legal and condition related information being put together for marketing is surely infallible. The other real failure is that HIPs were presented in the wrong way, aiming at the consumer with the industry tailing along. But if you think of how the original concept was developed, that’s not surprising. Consumers want to see a survey, environmental information etc; rights of way etc etc. but not detailed deeds and leases. Management companies need to be encouraged to improve the provision of leasehold information online. Valuation exercises need to be more efficient. The EPC is a complete red herring in all this, yet it has become the main protagonist (many people seem to think a HIP is an EPC). The EPC wasn’t invented when HIPs were being developed.
I just hope that the conservatives will recognise that the HIP may be broken but a return to what it replaced would be even more of a disaster, given that the system is capable of being more efficient with or without government interference. If one thing is needed in all this it’s a universal approach. The HIP as it stands is a flawed catalyst.

• 10 July 2009 17:56 PM

What I want is to see more people putting there properties on the market not having to worry about getting a HIP pack. But I’m an agent so if I deal with increased level of instructions then yes the sales will follow. As for the pack there if no great short term advantage to someone paying anywhere between £250 to £650, the door then opens up to solicitors doing what part the pack does but at the time it is needed. Timescales not affected by doing this, ok the PIQ (Property Information Questionnaire) and EPC maybe you could get away. Abolish the ‘I must have a Hip before I put my property on the market’. But my small voice of opinion in such a vast sea of indifference will hardly have the impact I would like to see, so bring in the Tories and abolish the HIP all together or make a difference and do something about it and show us all that it really does speed things up and serves a purpose when selling your property. Let’s not hope that the Hip was not introduced as a window of opportunity for the government to introduce another property tax for when you sell.

• 10 July 2009 17:29 PM

Rob, You say "one or two "muddled" conveyancers or bad "factory conveyancers" made it awful for everyone." Then surely your issue is with regulation of professional standards as applied to your industry rather than the conveyancing process per se. If the regulators of the legal profession did their jobs to weed out the people your mention - would we still have a problem? Surely, better to regulate the few rather than the many? Maybe the Law Society/CLC should do their jobs rather than turning a blind eye and operating like institutional old boys networks.

• 10 July 2009 17:22 PM

Martyn, if it is that good I would rush back to conveyancing now but in my experience one or two "muddled" conveyancers or bad "factory conveyancers" made it awful for everyone. You are as fast as the slowest link in the chain. Information up front, everytime, has to be the way forward surely?

• 10 July 2009 17:10 PM

"So, I repeat my question, what do you guys want then?" With respect, Rob, with advanced case management software, better trained staff and proactive practice management, the old system worked perfectly well. The firms I recommend had lower abortive rates, reduced staff turnover and generally produced happy clients. This is because they were run like professional businesses. The days of a muddled conveyancer with a pile of paper files on his desk and the phone off the hook while he sneaks out for a pint are thankfully long gone - but that doesn't mean the HIP is the way to go (forgive the characterisation - not aimed at you personally!)

• 10 July 2009 17:02 PM

I do agree with Rob that if there was a more efficient way or even solution to speed the process up then yes it makes the HIP worth it weight in gold and has some meaning to why and what it’s there for to the general public who have to pay for it. It would serve a purpose which it was meant to do some 2 years ago. So although yes I do want the HIP out, it’s because it serves no real purpose at the moment in my opinion, does not speed up the sales process and open the door to what I would call racketeering from agents who maybe are not as busy as some of the bigger and stronger agents out there.
If there was a solution to make the pack (HIP) more user friendly and it given a purpose in life then yes I’m all for it.

• 10 July 2009 16:54 PM

One of the reasons HIPs are failing is that the pack is seen by HIP providers as a trojan horse for hidden charges and profits. Many agents - even some good ones - have been seduced by the trickles of revenue from conveyancing, searches, insurance and EPCs while the river that provides real revenue has all but dried up. The sooner the industry gets rid of the army of brokers and packagers and gets back to basics - an agent and a local solicitor and surveyor, the better for all of us. By all means improve the legal process if necessary but implement the changes with consensus and without profits for middle men.

• 10 July 2009 16:38 PM

Hats off to rob hailstone, I get the feeling you genuinely want to find a solution to this rather than the other HIP providers who just chant that hips work and stick their fingers in their ears when someone counter argues. Also, this is the most sensible HIP debate I’ve seen on this forum for some time and thankfully its not descended into childish row. In my opinion the biggest single problem is that its forced on to us. Where is the consumer’s choice in that? The government have dropped this on us all without listening to any sector of the industry first and we then have to deal with the fall out, it’s the industry that is having to fine tune the process and tell potential vendors that they have no choice and have to pay like it or not! So the government will get what they deserve. The consumer just see’s HIPs as another stealth tax/additional cost, that’s a fact. They were so badly implemented the general public still have little idea of what they are all about.
A solution? Well that’s a tough one. Some parts of it I like. The PIQ form and the EPC are a good thing but telling someone whos just seen a property that they really want to buy that they cant put their own home up for sale until theirs is HIP compliant is another thing. And for the record, I’ve never charged for a HIP, I just want to sell property.

• 10 July 2009 15:26 PM

.....

• 10 July 2009 15:09 PM

So, I repeat my question, what do you guys want then? If Hips go and I have to return to conveyancing (that is if an agent would ever recommend me again!!) I don't want to go back to what we had before. Despite my best efforts then and regular 12 hour days, the system itself was flawed. I used to get instructed by a few agents on day one (that did make a difference) but nowhere near enough.

• 10 July 2009 15:01 PM

Alan, so are you taking 'huge slices'? I find that very distasteful, and that is just the type of practice that makes our profession look so seedy.
yes I am honest, and if I am are you saying that you are dishonest? The HIP does not speed up the buying process, but if agents spent a little time advising vendors to gather building permissions, guarantees, and lodge them with their solicitors it will save time scabbling around just before exchange, which is when the solicitor normally asks for them

• 10 July 2009 14:53 PM

I understand why the Hip's were introduced and would fully stand by it 'If it did what it said on the tin', but it doesn't and after 2 years can't see it really happening. I think it will put a stop to agents bolting on stupid fees to Hip's and overvaluing properties, 'making money without selling properties'. That is not Estate Agency and surly is just as bad as when we were back in the late 80’s misleading information and agents getting paid for it. Yes I’m an agent and yes probably one of the small few that don’t charge a fee to make a call for a Hip, why…..because it’s wrong.

• 10 July 2009 14:37 PM

Rob - It's not just the utter ineffectiveness of HIPs that is causing such discontent. It is the fact that we agents cannot now fulfil what was always considered good practice - offering a client's property (even if not yet on the open market) to a prospective buyer, showing it, and possibly arranging a sale. The end of first day marketing has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster and certainly not in the consumer's best interest.

• 10 July 2009 14:36 PM

For the last two years I have been saying that the Hip needs more information added to it to speed up and make less stressful the home buying and selling experience. We (Hipag) created an online system that allowed estate agents to invite their preferred local lawyers to add that further information to the pack whilst the property is being marketed. Very few decided to be that pro-active. I now read regularly in various estate agency publications that all that is needed is the involvement of a good conveyancer on day one. Hmmm! If Hips are scrapped what next? Back to the bad old days or work with 'Son of Hip' which might be even worse. With lawyer and agent co-operation we are nearly there now. What is it that estate agents want that will improve on the creaking system we had?

• 10 July 2009 14:23 PM

It’s about time someone put a stop the avenue of agents making money from Hip’s, surly this is racketeering. I mean to bolt a fee for a telephone call then let someone else do the job, i'm all for the HIP getting scrapped. Plus how many could honestly say that anyone has looked at the HIP before making an offer apart from solicitors when instructed.Like how much has it speeded up the sales progress!!!

• 10 July 2009 14:20 PM

Wil
I don't agree with you one bit.

Estate Agent across the board are taking huge slices out of the cost of a HIP and even EPCs.
You must be the only loyal one in the country.

Trust me I work for lots of solicitors and they think different to you.

Explain where HIPs don't work I am interested to know why not.

• 10 July 2009 14:12 PM

Having spoken to many other agents, solicitors and surveyors, the general opinion is that the HIP DOES NOT WORK! We do not overcharge our clients to make money on the HIP, we want to abolish it because the system is so flawed. The only agents who want to keep the HIP is the agent overcharging their vendors.

• 10 July 2009 14:01 PM

Tories are no better than Labour.
In fact after 5 years of Conservative rule we will be asking the same questions we are now.
All parties are the same, they sound good when others are failing then they FAIL as well.
As for HIPs I really don't think Estate Agents etc will welcome another change JUST THINK OF All that money they get from every HIP order, how on earth are they going to survive without it?
HIPs are here now and are working.
End of lesson.

• 10 July 2009 13:38 PM

All power to Nick and his Splinta group, had Labour considered the older vendor, all monies tied up in homes, come out with agents and watch the confusion and worry on older vendors try and understand what HIPs is all about. Worse still, stick the completely useless PAQ in front of them and watch the confusion grow, or, as I did last week visit a vendor in a nursing home and ask her to fill in a PIQ so we can market her property, which she needs to sell to pay for her nursing home. And I am not allowed to assist her, Of course, no relatives. HIP - useless waste of time.

• 10 July 2009 13:36 PM

PeeBee - What you have to account for is they bewnefit from the VAT on every HIP whether it sells or not and the stamp duty is paid only on a completion, so they really are enjoying double VAT as 50% of properties that come onto the market actually sell, in fact its more likely 30-40% - But Hey Ho what ever happens we will have to comply regardless - Oh and PS. What will the torries do with Stamp Duty??? put it up thats what!

• 10 July 2009 13:05 PM

HIPs Good/Bad?????? - re. your comment about loss of VAT revenue on HIPs. VAT on HIP - £40 to £50; VAT on sale of property that has come to the market because it doesn't need a HIP - anywhere from £150 upwards. Which do YOU think the new government would want?

• 10 July 2009 12:45 PM

hipsgood/bad,. in my opinion the process isn’t working after two years but hey ho that’s just me and im sure there will be plenty that agree. Yes the tories will lose a few quid on the vat from HIPs but think about the stamp duty revenue generated but the upsurge in more sales going through.

• 10 July 2009 12:36 PM

Is it naive to believe that these Labour politicians didn't get to where they are without being intelligent men and women? Why can't they see what they've done and are currently doing to the Housing Market which, as has been rightly said, is the backbone of this economy. When the Housing Market suffers look at the spin off of suffering for builders, suppliers, DIY stores, etc, etc. Why is it that we can all see this except the Labour government or is there some agenda we don't know about. It's not the first time we've witnessed it but we are looking at a government which is self imploding - let's just hope they don't do too much damage before they go!!

• 10 July 2009 12:17 PM

If you really beleive that the Torries will scrap HIPs well it will go down as another false promise by Conservatives, do you really think they will scrap them and make the number of people involved redundant overnight? not forgetting the rather nice VAT income stream they enjoy!!!! - Watch this space, in 20 years as an agent, i've never been wrong yet! WATCH THIS SPACE! Also after 2yrs of getting the process right, it will be a disaster to have to undo all that has been set up.........

• 10 July 2009 12:14 PM

Arise sir Grant. Not only an excellent vote winner for the Tories (must be 30-40,000 people work in our industry still)But also a very sensible policy which bodes well for future decisions. Roll on the election.

• 10 July 2009 12:02 PM

Labour just don’t get it. Whether we like it or not the housing market is the backbone of our economy. By putting in lots of measures which deter people from selling and it’s a recipe for disaster. It will be very interesting to see how quickly things will recover when all the legislation is scrapped and we can simply go back to putting houses up for sale without all the red tape. I for one can confirm 100% that we have lost a significant chunk of our listing because we’ve lost speculative sellers. The elections couldn’t come sooner in my opinion.
Agreed jm regarding lack of instructions in early 2010 but theres not much we can do about apart from making sure your letting dept in good shape short term pain for long term gain. Whats the solution otherwise?

• 10 July 2009 11:43 AM

What an irresponsible thing to say. There might be a shortage of new instructions now but imagine what it'll be like throughout March, April, May, and June next year whilst potential vendors wait!!! There'll be absolutely nothing coming on. Nothing!!!

• 10 July 2009 11:37 AM

In our recent survey the majority of respondents indicated that they will vote Tory on the strength of the pledge to scrap HIPs. Start packing Gordon...

• 10 July 2009 11:28 AM

GOOD. nice to see the tories are on the ball. the will get my vote also and i will force my wife to vote them in as well!

• 10 July 2009 11:22 AM

I'll vote them in just for NO HIPS but lets work on the licencing issue.

• 10 July 2009 11:19 AM

X marks THE spot!

Conservative X
Labour
Lib Dem
Others

• 10 July 2009 11:09 AM